Vlad Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 2) It validates local laws that restrict magazine capacity - laws we should be doing everything we can to push back against. Sorry but that does't hold water. Those states could give a rats ass about USPSA, they don't need us to validate or negate their f*#kery. Also, I'll point out that about 100mil people in this country live in states with restricted magazine capacities. How much do you care about the sport and how much do you want to screw a third of the population. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 L10 is still needed for guys in ban states. Even if they travel to bigger matches they often don't own stand capacity mags and must still shoot in L10 or be destroyed by guys with standard mags. Or they could shoot a real man's division, legal in every state (singlestack). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EngineerEli Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 (edited) If we want less divisions, I would say we combine Single Stack and L10. I wouldn't even thing it would take much adjustment to the rules... Then it would bring this new combined division to a participation level above Open! (according to previous stats) Combined L10/Single Stack rules: -Start cocked and locked -No optics -No more than 10 rds in the magazine at the start signal (can go as long as they want) -Allowance for Minor or Major PF (Major PF must be .40 cal or above, or .357 sig for those goof balls) -Otherwise fair game Edited September 22, 2015 by EngineerEli Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrmblr Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 If we want less divisions, I would say we combine Single Stack and L10. I wouldn't even thing it would take much adjustment to the rules... Then it would bring this new combined division to a participation level above Open! (according to previous stats) Combined L10/Single Stack rules: -Start cocked and locked -No optics -No more than 10 rds in the magazine at the start signal -Allowance for Minor or Major PF (Major PF must be .40 cal or above, or .357 sig for those goof balls) -Otherwise fair game I've mentioned the same idea to several people. I think this would really work. Most of the L10 guns I've seen are 2011's, plastics w/ magwells, or CZ's with magwells. Increase the SS mag capacity to 10 for everyone major or minor, have the hammer back safety on start, and EngineerEli is right, the playing field is pretty level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mass38S Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 (edited) From a purely business/organization stand point, eliminating a division really does nothing. If a division is causing undue hardship, loss of revenue, public outcry (well lets face it, guns in general do this) or does not follow the mission statement of the organization, then eliminate. At the national level, I would agree that a division should have a minimum number of participants to qualify for prizes or plaques. At the local level, win or lose, we all receive the same thing.....nada.....;-) For full disclosure, I shoot in the revolver division........at least I try..... Edited September 22, 2015 by Mass38S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 All though I voted, there will be no divisions eliminated - ever. ( Follow the money ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 If we want less divisions, I would say we combine Single Stack and L10. I wouldn't even thing it would take much adjustment to the rules... Then it would bring this new combined division to a participation level above Open! (according to previous stats) Combined L10/Single Stack rules: -Start cocked and locked -No optics -No more than 10 rds in the magazine at the start signal (can go as long as they want) -Allowance for Minor or Major PF (Major PF must be .40 cal or above, or .357 sig for those goof balls) -Otherwise fair game I'm not sure that would work. SS is a division with very specific design purity rules, and has proven itself to be very successful. What you describe is pretty much how things were with L10 before SS, and participation with single stack guns was never as good because they are not competitive against bull barrel, extended dust cover, double stack Limited guns. This seems like the very definition of throwing the baby out with the bath water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Really what we need is not fewer divisions but more shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elguapo Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Why should USPSA eliminate any division? What is the benefit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 For all of the people that keep making the "What about the banned/limited mag capacity states" argument. Rule 3.3.1 addresses this (I have listed it below). This rule effectively eliminates the need for the Limited 10 division all together. 3.3.1 - In states where competitors are restricted by law to maximum magazine capacity, that maximum capacity will be the maximum allowed for all competitors in the contest. Any such limitations must be made known to all competitors by the Match Director/Range Master before the start of the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 If we want less divisions, I would say we combine Single Stack and L10. I wouldn't even thing it would take much adjustment to the rules... Then it would bring this new combined division to a participation level above Open! (according to previous stats) Combined L10/Single Stack rules: -Start cocked and locked -No optics -No more than 10 rds in the magazine at the start signal (can go as long as they want) -Allowance for Minor or Major PF (Major PF must be .40 cal or above, or .357 sig for those goof balls) -Otherwise fair game I'm not sure that would work. SS is a division with very specific design purity rules, and has proven itself to be very successful. What you describe is pretty much how things were with L10 before SS, and participation with single stack guns was never as good because they are not competitive against bull barrel, extended dust cover, double stack Limited guns. This seems like the very definition of throwing the baby out with the bath water. more like people thought they were not competitive, just like many sheep now currently believe that plastic guns are not competitive against unicorns in production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 (edited) 2) It validates local laws that restrict magazine capacity - laws we should be doing everything we can to push back against. Sorry but that does't hold water. Those states could give a rats ass about USPSA, they don't need us to validate or negate their f*#kery. Also, I'll point out that about 100mil people in this country live in states with restricted magazine capacities. How much do you care about the sport and how much do you want to screw a third of the population. I don't want to screw anybody (except people from New Jersey - nobody likes them ). As I indicated, we already have Production, Single Stack and now Carry Optics that present plenty of competitive opportunities in the blighted states. Strengthening 3.3.1 to eliminate the use of pre-ban magazines would level the playing field further inside ban states - every person that feels the pain is one more person advocating for repeal of mag capacity laws. If folks want to compete at a national level, they can choose from P/SS/CO, or they can source magazines out of state. L10 participation rates speak for themselves. USPSA has a history of adding new divisions without purging the old ones.... like politicians in Washington adding more entitlements without paying for them. Without the courage to kill less popular divisions, the number of divisions will just continue to grow and grow until, like an elementary school sports day, we will be handing out participation ribbons to everyone so nobody suffers from self-esteem issues. Perhaps I am just old school - when I started shooting IPSC, there were no divisions... it was run what ya brung. The Unlimited/Limited transition made sense given the fast moving technical innovations of the time, but things are just getting silly now. I'd actually advocate for a constitutional amendment to limit the number of divisions... if the BOD wanted a new division, they'd have to kill an old one first (maybe with a provisional structure for testing new divisions and phasing out obsolete ones). Some hard rules on required participation rates would be good - less than X% participation = kill it with fire Edited September 22, 2015 by StealthyBlagga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eisenhow Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 For all of the people that keep making the "What about the banned/limited mag capacity states" argument. Rule 3.3.1 addresses this (I have listed it below). This rule effectively eliminates the need for the Limited 10 division all together. 3.3.1 - In states where competitors are restricted by law to maximum magazine capacity, that maximum capacity will be the maximum allowed for all competitors in the contest. Any such limitations must be made known to all competitors by the Match Director/Range Master before the start of the match. It addresses states like NY and Colorado but NOT Massachusetts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x45 Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Really what we need is not fewer divisions but more shooters. What? It's already too crowded, I don't want to be at the range until 2pm... Fewer divisions, fewer shooters, shorter matches! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Really what we need is not fewer divisions but more shooters. Yeah, I just don't get to sit around waiting for a stage as much as I would like... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 For all of the people that keep making the "What about the banned/limited mag capacity states" argument. Rule 3.3.1 addresses this (I have listed it below). This rule effectively eliminates the need for the Limited 10 division all together. 3.3.1 - In states where competitors are restricted by law to maximum magazine capacity, that maximum capacity will be the maximum allowed for all competitors in the contest. Any such limitations must be made known to all competitors by the Match Director/Range Master before the start of the match. It addresses states like NY and Colorado but NOT Massachusetts. How or Why would this rule not function properly to ensure that all competitors adhere to the Massachusetts 10 round capacity limit law? Every division should be restricted to 10 round magazines in that state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 2) It validates local laws that restrict magazine capacity - laws we should be doing everything we can to push back against. Sorry but that does't hold water. Those states could give a rats ass about USPSA, they don't need us to validate or negate their f*#kery. Also, I'll point out that about 100mil people in this country live in states with restricted magazine capacities. How much do you care about the sport and how much do you want to screw a third of the population. I don't want to screw anybody (except people from New Jersey - nobody likes them ). As I indicated, we already have Production, Single Stack and now Carry Optics that present plenty of competitive opportunities in the blighted states. When we go to dinner after matches in other states, our "friends" yell "NJ sucks!" at us in parking lots. We usually retort with "What, you think we don't know?". We are gifted with silver tongues, clearly. The problem with your statement is that by your standards Production and Carry Optics are also "validating" those silly laws. You can't be ok with 10rd and production while complaining about the L10 capacity limit, it is self contradictory. TBH, I couldn't care less if L10 goes away personally, but at almost every match I've been there were a lot more L10 shooters then revolver. Perhaps we letting sentiments get in the way of careful analysis when trying to determine which division we want to kick of the island? On the other hand what exactly does it hurt, beyond some folks personal beliefs ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 L10 is still needed for guys in ban states. Even if they travel to bigger matches they often don't own stand capacity mags and must still shoot in L10 or be destroyed by guys with standard mags.Or they could shoot a real man's division, legal in every state (singlestack). Exactly. Or they can shoot Production or even 8 shot Revo for that matter .... Oh, wait, we need to get rid of Revo too ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 For all of the people that keep making the "What about the banned/limited mag capacity states" argument. Rule 3.3.1 addresses this (I have listed it below). This rule effectively eliminates the need for the Limited 10 division all together. 3.3.1 - In states where competitors are restricted by law to maximum magazine capacity, that maximum capacity will be the maximum allowed for all competitors in the contest. Any such limitations must be made known to all competitors by the Match Director/Range Master before the start of the match. Does this actually happen at USPSA matches in those states? I know it does in Hawaii ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Lets go back to early days, 1911s and Browning Hi-Powers, open sights and 175 PF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eisenhow Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 For all of the people that keep making the "What about the banned/limited mag capacity states" argument. Rule 3.3.1 addresses this (I have listed it below). This rule effectively eliminates the need for the Limited 10 division all together. 3.3.1 - In states where competitors are restricted by law to maximum magazine capacity, that maximum capacity will be the maximum allowed for all competitors in the contest. Any such limitations must be made known to all competitors by the Match Director/Range Master before the start of the match. It addresses states like NY and Colorado but NOT Massachusetts. How or Why would this rule not function properly to ensure that all competitors adhere to the Massachusetts 10 round capacity limit law? Every division should be restricted to 10 round magazines in that state. Because MA allows grand-fathered pre-ban magazines, they are not completely banned. If you can find and are willing to pay you can get pre-ban glock mags and shoot limited. If you shoot an M&P you are SOL (they don't exist). Either compete at a severe disadvantage, choose to tempt becoming a felon, or don't play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x45 Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Lets go back to early days, 1911s and Browning Hi-Powers, open sights and 175 PF. Hey Steve, you know Glocks came around in 1988. You need to fast forward by 100 years.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Does this actually happen at USPSA matches in those states? I know it does in Hawaii ..... Yes, we use that rule in NJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 For all of the people that keep making the "What about the banned/limited mag capacity states" argument. Rule 3.3.1 addresses this (I have listed it below). This rule effectively eliminates the need for the Limited 10 division all together. 3.3.1 - In states where competitors are restricted by law to maximum magazine capacity, that maximum capacity will be the maximum allowed for all competitors in the contest. Any such limitations must be made known to all competitors by the Match Director/Range Master before the start of the match. It addresses states like NY and Colorado but NOT Massachusetts. How or Why would this rule not function properly to ensure that all competitors adhere to the Massachusetts 10 round capacity limit law? Every division should be restricted to 10 round magazines in that state. in some states (like california, i dunno about mass), competitors are NOT restricted by law to 10 round mags. They just can't buy or import any MORE high-cap mags. So 3.3.1 does not apply to those states) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2MoreChains Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 I think the divisions ought to be centered around two things: Type of sights and mag capacity. If you want a dot, you're in Open If you want a dot but don't want to go full blown Open you have Carry Otics (if it survives the provisional period). If you want to run a hi-cap gun but with iron sights you're in Limited If you want to run a low-cap gun with other iron sights, then see below I seem to recall reading a comment where somebody was espousing an idea that USPSA should combine the 3 low-cap divisions Prod, SS, and L10 (excluding REVO for the moment) into one division. Establish a max capacity of 8 rnds for major and 10 rnds for minor. SA, striker fired, DA/SA shoot heads up in that "low-cap" division. Settle on one standard for gear placement in this low-cap division, i.e. Prod rules which require everything behind the hipbone but allow DOH holsters. It's the indian, not the bow right? But sometimes the capacity of the quiver can be a game changer on some stages/matches. Let's race! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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