3 gun sucking away uspsa shooters?

[MetropolisLake]

I like to shoot both but if it is one or the other I usually go 3 gun unless the drive is long. This weekend a friend and I went to a USPSA match and it was kind of weird one bag (everything needed fit in one shooting bag) of stuff per person compare to loading up all the guns, gear, ammo and carts we take for three gun.

I don't have much of anything locally. There are some square range things and the occasional cowboy action thingy but that's about it. I figure that if I have to drive 3 hours one way to get to anything with some action, I might as well make it worth my while.

I think the rifle is the biggest draw. Everybody wants some action with their AR, I don't care who you are. Nothing else provides this kind of outlet.

And the shotgun... I mean, where else can you dump several rounds in a row at various targets while moving? Nowhere. The skeet club scene gets boring.

Then there's the whole transitions thing. You can't do that anywhere else except your own garage.

[Bryan 45]

3Gun-- where the tomfoolery is much less prevalent.

This is right up there w/ "lack of understanding leads to excessive wacking."

[MarkCO]

3Gun-- where the tomfoolery is much less prevalent.

This is right up there w/ "lack of understanding leads to excessive wacking."

Yep!

[Vlad]

Well the one thing that USPSA matches have going for them is that they require a lot less range then a 3 gun match. USPSA pistol matches require less props, less distance, less berms, less club or range buy in, etc. Basically it is a lot easier to get a USPSA match going and keep it running then a 3gun match.

I've been considering changing the monthly USPSA pistol match I run to some form of multigun and the first two big problems that might be impossible to solve is convincing the club to let me shoot rifles in the pistol pits (which would be fine, the berms are very good) and figuring out how to use the short pits in interesting ways as I'm pretty sure the club won't let me use more of the range then I already do.

Basically, at the local level, 3gun is a lot harder to get going.

I disagree. I've run majors and run both USPSA pistol and 3Gun locally. I get more help for set-up at every match we run than the USPSA pidtol match, which still has a slight edge on shooter numbers. Any USPSA pistol stage can be shot with pistol/rifle. Add some steel and or clays, and you are on to 3Gun. Most of the local 3Gun matches we have run have been in pistol berms. Some of the most challenging 3Gun stages I have seen have been in the pistol berms. Also, the short courses are somewhat beneficial to the new shooters with an M4 and a CCW pistol.

A few weeks ago, I ran a 3Gun match with steel and paper. We had 4 USPSA pistol shooters show up and shoot the entire match with their USPSA pistol. Just takes some imagination.

I'm not sure that we actually disagree. I think that you are right that you can run a 3gun match in a pistol bay world, but not at every range does that actually exist. I've seen a few ranges where the layout just doesn't work. You still need to add some 3gun specific challanges such as a lot more steel or clay holders or something to make shotgun worth brining out. For my clubs it actually would work just fine, but I would have the much bigger challenge of convincing the old timer that 3gun shooting is not the work of the devil. They already think USPSA is mad crazy stuff and the only reason I can run the match is that it was there before any of the were elected on the board.

[Solvability]

Huge increase in 3Gun locally - not seeing a decline in club USPSA unless folks have a major match to attend. I am liking it a lot - best of three worlds.

Some decline for IDPA - folks are unhappy with the poor governance of the sport.

[Moltke]

Well the one thing that USPSA matches have going for them is that they require a lot less range then a 3 gun match. USPSA pistol matches require less props, less distance, less berms, less club or range buy in, etc. Basically it is a lot easier to get a USPSA match going and keep it running then a 3gun match.

I've been considering changing the monthly USPSA pistol match I run to some form of multigun and the first two big problems that might be impossible to solve is convincing the club to let me shoot rifles in the pistol pits (which would be fine, the berms are very good) and figuring out how to use the short pits in interesting ways as I'm pretty sure the club won't let me use more of the range then I already do.

Basically, at the local level, 3gun is a lot harder to get going.

I disagree. I've run majors and run both USPSA pistol and 3Gun locally. I get more help for set-up at every match we run than the USPSA pidtol match, which still has a slight edge on shooter numbers. Any USPSA pistol stage can be shot with pistol/rifle. Add some steel and or clays, and you are on to 3Gun. Most of the local 3Gun matches we have run have been in pistol berms. Some of the most challenging 3Gun stages I have seen have been in the pistol berms. Also, the short courses are somewhat beneficial to the new shooters with an M4 and a CCW pistol.

A few weeks ago, I ran a 3Gun match with steel and paper. We had 4 USPSA pistol shooters show up and shoot the entire match with their USPSA pistol. Just takes some imagination.

I'm not sure that we actually disagree. I think that you are right that you can run a 3gun match in a pistol bay world, but not at every range does that actually exist. I've seen a few ranges where the layout just doesn't work. You still need to add some 3gun specific challanges such as a lot more steel or clay holders or something to make shotgun worth brining out. For my clubs it actually would work just fine, but I would have the much bigger challenge of convincing the old timer that 3gun shooting is not the work of the devil. They already think USPSA is mad crazy stuff and the only reason I can run the match is that it was there before any of the were elected on the board.

Targets at close range whether they are pistol, shotgun, or rifle in a small tactical bay can be made easy or hard. 3 Gun in a pistol bay can be made brutal if the stage designer is willing to annoy some folks. Additionally, close range targets with a shotgun may not always seem as easy they look. Close range arrays of anything are usually interpreted by most shooters as "this is something I can go really fast on" and it lends to people trying to outpace themselves, then they make mistakes, then they don't so as well. Spread some things out, make people move around, bring some stuff in real close, force wide transitions or build a choppy stage - and let shooters bring their own problems to a match.

At least that's one way of looking at it if all you have is a pistol bay to play in.

[BobS761]

Of course, we've had a few shooters come over from USPSA that we'd be glad to give back!

Bryan, I don't suck that bad!

Edited September 25, 2013 by BobS761

[EkuJustice]

I shoot and enjoy both. I can shoot quite a few more pistol matches locally than I can 3 gun so I shoot pistol more but when there is a pistol and a 3 gun match the same Day I shoot the 3 gun as it's not as avaloable as much

[xdnok]

I tried 3 gun for awhile and have to admit I enjoyed it but, carrying around 3 guns and all of the stuff along with the time needed got to be real old real fast. Sold the M2, kept the AR's and back to USPSA only for now.

[rangerguy]

I started shooting USPSA and Steel challenge. 3gun has blown up in my area and there is a match every weekend. 3gun is just more fun to me now and yes EXPENSIVE!!!

[Rob01]

I just like to shoot. No real 3 gun in my area so I shoot IDPA and just got into USPSA, which I really enjoy. I travel to 3 gun matches when I can. I like shooting everything. Last week was FN 3 Gun and a USPSA match, shooting a steel match this weekend, the next two weekends after that will be USPSA matches and then down to KY for Blue Ridge 3 Gun. Yes sometimes pistol only matches are nicer with having to carry less gear and ammo but I really like testing all my skills in 3 gun.

Edited September 26, 2013 by Rob01

[BillChunn]

The only club within a reasonable driving distance that holds 3gun matches has to shoot underneath wooden baffles to appease the locals. This severely hampers stage design creativity. The real downside is that they hold the match on the same day as my club runs our USPSA match.

When they put on 6 stages, it becomes a 8:00 AM to 4:30 PM day at the range with 40 other competitors. Those that consider themselves above everyone else will "shoot 'n scoot" before helping with stage teardown. Seems it's always their kid's birthday or they have "people in from out of town" so they have to leave before the squad is even done shooting.

When the squad of 10 people turned in to 3 that tore down the stage, it was the last time I went.

BC

[MarkCO]

Bill, sounds like that club does not have 3Gunners, but consumers.

[toddje]

I'm still avoiding 3 gun till my kids get out of college. Holy crap that's an expensive sport. I think it has "pulled" some folks out of IDPA here locally, not so sure about USPSA.

[MarkCO]

It is expensive to go out and buy a complete top of the line set-up...but you won't notice much difference in the first few matches anyway. I shot my first with a Marlin Camp 9, a Rem 870 and a Glock 22. I've seen people shoot with bolt guns their first match. There is so much to learn, getting started (without buying anything new) is the best way to go!

[sargenv]

In the run up to the nationals we just broke a record at our last club match.. 104 shooters through 5 stages.. and we were done by 3:30 pm..

We've had anywhere from 60 (on the low end) to 104 (record number) all summer.. it will start to likely taper off and we'll get numbers in the 30's or 40's when it starts raining, but if it turns out that match day is nice, we could have as many as 75-80 on a winter sunday.. Our usual big number matches used to be 50-60... things have definitely picked up in the last few years.. We don't usually get more than about 40 or so at our limited number of multi gun matches.. the one we had last week had something like 30 shooters..

[ss+P]

so i started shooting 3 gun last year with the Pro/Am and it was fun. i only shot major 3 gun matchs this year and local USPSA matches to keep my skills up. I like the prize tables at 3 gun events. as several of you have said if you are in the top 50-100 (depending on the size of the match) you can earn your entry fee or even all match expenseses back. i shot the Tar-Heel match and the FNH match this year and i am only out maybe 100 bucks of what i put into it.

I got a little burnt out of USPSA. I won limited A class and was in the top 15 at an area USPSA match last year and got 50 bucks. not complaining about it, i was happy to get that back, however in all my match fees, ammo, hotel, gas and a few things i don't remember buying i spend a lot more on USPSA then i did on 3 gun this year. i switched to single stack and have found the fire for USPSA again.

someone mentioned that there is more potential for sponsors and companies to get more product out for 3 gun and i agree with that. not sure what USPSA can do to keep up, if they are losing shooters to 3 gun, but i will continue to shoot both as long as i can.

[co-exprs]

I just plain got burned out on pistol. USPSA pistol is fun and all, but to be a top competitor, you have to pour every spare minute and resource into your pistol game for years, just to be able to say you are competitive. Then, after years of work and a few hundred thousand rounds down range, you finally start feeling good about your performance level, only to hear some one say "yeah, but he's just a paper GM". I want to shoot lots of different guns and lots of variety in stages. Last thing I want to do anymore is go to the range 3 times a week and shoot 4000rds a month, through the same STI pistol, doing the same drills, over and over again just for a letter on a card. I enjoy a couple of pistol matches each month, but I generally consider them practice for 3gun matches. The big prize tables at the national level matches are certainly fun, but even on a local match level... I prefer 3gun. Also, the sponsorship opportunities in 3gun are much better with a considerably wider pool of sponsors for shooters. I'm really not anybody in the sport and picked up my first 4 sponsors this year. All 4 sponsors are small companies and were looking for representatives. All 4 approached me... and I'm nobody. Also (and this will be a key point in a few more years) there is 1000x more youth sponsorship in 3gun. Thus 3gun is and will continue to undercut USPSA pistol for new blood.

[Tommy T]

Interesting topic. What is the difference between an "outlaw" 3-gun match and a "non-outlaw" (?) 3-gun match?

I shoot both USPSA and 3-gun. They both have their appeal. In the Greater Houston area, I have not noticed USPSA shooters leaving that discipline for 3-gun. Which doesn't mean it's not happening, just that it's not obvious to me if it is.

I helped run a USPSA club in Corpus Christi, back in the mid-to-late 80's. The entire Texas South Section was experimenting with 3-gun, even back then. The majority of which consisted of shooting pistol stages, with rifles on paper and shotguns on steel. Nowadays that type of match more often seems to get called a "carbine" match. While some 3-gun matches are pushing rifle targets out to 500 yards and beyond.

The long matches seem like a lot of work to put on and to run. Some movement is good, even required. But too much movement can wear out your shooters, your ROs and takes too much time. I enjoy a shooting contest, but I'll stay home if I know it's going to be a track meet.

Good Luck and Good Shooting,

Tommy

[MarkCO]

What is the difference between an "outlaw" 3-gun match and a "non-outlaw" (?) 3-gun match

Basically the ruleset and the governing body. USPSA 3Gun matches and 3GunNation matches have a vetted set of rules discussed and agreed upon by a collective. They have an organization that backs-up, oversees and has requirements for the match to be run under their banner.

Outlaw, there is an entity, usually one person, who make the rules, does everything short of ROing. In most cases, it works out and they are well run. In some cases, these types of matches have fallen apart or headed off into the weeds.

There is another type, and I am not sure what to call it, but it is not really outlaw, but not under an organization. Maybe Corporate 3Gun? Crimson Trace and FNH each have a match. They both have very accomplished shooters as MDs, recruit some of the best staff in the country and have the success and or failure tied to their corporate identity. Their employees are involved in promoting and running the match as well. The rules still come from a person, but they solicit and incorporate input from staff and competitors alike. IMHO, these two matches, while relatively young, are at the top of the heap for many reasons.

[Flatland Shooter]

The long matches seem like a lot of work to put on and to run. Some movement is good, even required. But too much movement can wear out your shooters, your ROs and takes too much time. I enjoy a shooting contest, but I'll stay home if I know it's going to be a track meet.

Tommy,

I see you are signed up for the 3GN Club Series Match this weekend. Since this initial match is all classifiers, you only have any real movement on just two of the stages (approx 8 - 9 yards each time).

Perfect for us old timers.

See you Sunday.

[tohm]

Rockcastle had some fun club level matches USPSA on Saturday and 3 Gun Sunday. I went to one met some great folks and it was a great way to burn through ammo, probably helped turnout to both matches.

[Tommy T]

The long matches seem like a lot of work to put on and to run. Some movement is good, even required. But too much movement can wear out your shooters, your ROs and takes too much time. I enjoy a shooting contest, but I'll stay home if I know it's going to be a track meet.

Tommy,

I see you are signed up for the 3GN Club Series Match this weekend. Since this initial match is all classifiers, you only have any real movement on just two of the stages (approx 8 - 9 yards each time).

Perfect for us old timers.

See you Sunday.

I look forward to it!

:-)

Tommy

[Supermoto]

There isn't much 3Gun where I live. I'm to lazy to pack up all the gear and drive to a bigger match. Plus I don't want to shoot a litle bit of each gun, I rather shoot a lot of one gun. So if I do make an effort outside of uspsa. It is usually for a rifle only match...shotguns are to slow.

USPSA does need to step it up. It needs to increase round count and reduce division

[Seth Long]

USPSA really lacks in the payout department. I agree, I think the chance at big money draws a lot of people to 3G.

York use to be really good at paying out cash to competitors when they had a USPSA program. I know Area 8 has in the past as well. It would be nice to know you have a chance at winning something worthwhile or helping with your expenses. Instead you have find another way to convince yourself that level 2 match is worth the trip/money. I don't need or want a trophy for placing in A class to throw in the reloading room with all the other "feel good" trophys I accumulate.

Maybe I need to accumulate a "good payout" match list, and start only attending those matches.