ULASC

[outerlimits]

RO'ing a stage today. been CRO since 1991 and have RO'd a few folks in my time.

guy shoots a stage, at ULASC does the flip and starts to holster...i ask to see the chamber. he says "you don't need to, it's not your problem". something about new rules. i tell him to show clear again. he does but is mildly upset that i even asked. proceeds to tell me the new rulebook puts all responsibility onto the shooter. if it goes bang, it's his problem. i tell him that's BS and that i would never let him leave the line without me knowing that gun is empty. he keeps telling me it's all on the shooter, and that the RO is not responsible. the shooter is a master and has been around awhile, as far as i know. IAC, can't believe what transpired-he should have known better. after all these years, i've never had a shooter tell me that.

[diehli]

Sounds like a real piece of work.

I'll happily repeat ULASC until I'm actually shown clear.

[bbbean]

You're both right. I do't see any way to interpret ULASC without SHOWING clear. Otherwise, the command would simply be "unload and holster" and we'd let them leave the stage! On the other hand, the next command starts with "If Clear,..." so the onus is on the shooter if for some reason he wasn't clear.

When I'm ROing I always want to SEE clear. When I'm shooting, I always SHOW clear. Belt and suspenders is the reason our sport is as safe as it is.

Edited March 24, 2013 by bbbean

[BritinUSA]

There are two rules

• 8.3.6 “If You Are Finished, Unload And Show Clear” – If the competitor has finished shooting, he must lower his handgun and present it for inspection by the Range Officer with the muzzle pointed down range, magazine removed, slide locked or held open, and chamber empty. Revolvers must be presented with the cylinder swung out and empty.
  

After this rule has been applied then the following rule kicks in:

• 8.3.7 “If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster” – After issuance of this command, the competitor is prohibited from firing (see Rule 10.4.3). While continuing to point the handgun safely downrange, the competitor must perform a final safety check of the handgun as follows:
  

The competitor did not show the gun was empty to the RO, therefore he must repeat 8.3.6 until he complies with it or gets DQ'ed for not obeying the RO's instructions.

Edited March 24, 2013 by BritinUSA

[a matt]

t. We have a great record for being a safe sport. I'm sure he has nothing to do with it. It sounds like he is becoming an unsafe, shady issue. He should be explained the rules and informed if he can play by them then thanks you for coming and thank you for going.

Edited for name calling,

Edited March 24, 2013 by a matt

[BillChunn]

the shooter is a master and has been around awhile, as far as i know.

Personally, it doesn't matter how long a shooter has "been around" or what class he or she has attained. When I'm running a shooter, IT'S MY RANGE! If you want to walk off my range then you had better be sure and show me an empty gun. As BritinUSA posted, the rulebook clearly states who does what when.

If they were to leave MY RANGE without following clearly stated instructions, they are going home.

10.6.1 Competitors will be disqualified from a match for conduct which Range Officer deems to be unsportsmanlike. Examples of unsportsmanlike conduct include, but are not limited to, cheating, dishonesty, failing to comply with the reasonable directions of a Match Official, or any behavior likely to bring the sport into disrepute. The Range Master must be notified as soon as possible.

[coldchar]

Remind him of this:

10.6.1 Competitors will be disqualified from a match for conduct which a

Range Officer deems to be unsportsmanlike. Examples of unsportsmanlike

conduct include, but are not limited to, cheating, dishonesty,

failing to comply with the reasonable directions of a Match Official, or

any behavior likely to bring the sport into disrepute. The Range Master

must be notified as soon as possible.

Jim

[Pat Miles]

the shooter is a master and has been around awhile, as far as i know.

Personally, it doesn't matter how long a shooter has "been around" or what class he or she has attained. When I'm running a shooter, IT'S MY RANGE! If you want to walk off my range then you had better be sure and show me an empty gun. As BritinUSA posted, the rulebook clearly states who does what when.

If they were to leave MY RANGE without following clearly stated instructions, they are going home.

10.6.1 Competitors will be disqualified from a match for conduct which Range Officer deems to be unsportsmanlike. Examples of unsportsmanlike conduct include, but are not limited to, cheating, dishonesty, failing to comply with the reasonable directions of a Match Official, or any behavior likely to bring the sport into disrepute. The Range Master must be notified as soon as possible.

+1 and he WILL go home!

Pat

[ac4wordplay]

Yes, he's a M, and has been doing IPSC/USPSA since ~ '92 (?). He had done the same thing to me a few times earlier in the day. He was also taking on RO responsibilities, so he likely considered himself a range official too. We had incorrect range commands used frequently, targets scored and taped while the shooter was still shooting the CoF, and a couple other funky things going on. You wouldn't have guessed that it was a points match (speaking for this squad only - doesn't reflect on the match or other squads).

[carlosa]

Sorry to hear this Butch..

This guy most obviously has some issues..

[Chuck Anderson]

Yes, he's a M, and has been doing IPSC/USPSA since ~ '92 (?). He had done the same thing to me a few times earlier in the day. He was also taking on RO responsibilities, so he likely considered himself a range official too. We had incorrect range commands used frequently, targets scored and taped while the shooter was still shooting the CoF, and a couple other funky things going on. You wouldn't have guessed that it was a points match (speaking for this squad only - doesn't reflect on the match or other squads).

Alex, would you have a bit of time to write something up to send out to the section? I can help out if you'd like or Carl or Keith. I'm thinking just a general reminder about some of the rules that seem to be getting overlooked at local matches. If not let me know and I can write it up. Just need examples ( in addition to what is here).

[GrumpyOne]

Yes, he's a M, and has been doing IPSC/USPSA since ~ '92 (?). He had done the same thing to me a few times earlier in the day. He was also taking on RO responsibilities, so he likely considered himself a range official too. We had incorrect range commands used frequently, targets scored and taped while the shooter was still shooting the CoF, and a couple other funky things going on. You wouldn't have guessed that it was a points match (speaking for this squad only - doesn't reflect on the match or other squads).

Alex, would you have a bit of time to write something up to send out to the section? I can help out if you'd like or Carl or Keith. I'm thinking just a general reminder about some of the rules that seem to be getting overlooked at local matches. If not let me know and I can write it up. Just need examples ( in addition to what is here).

This is what we, as shooters, need. More involvment in the local issues from the AD's, where things can get corrected before they get out of hand. Thank you, Chuck, for setting a great example to follow!

[Flexmoney]

If you get something written up, send it to me too.

[Flexmoney]

. He is stil an idiot.

Please leave out the personal comments. We don't do that here. It doesn't help us share information, nor address the issues. The shooter here has some bad information that lead him to faulty conclusions.

_ Admin.

[Sarge]

. He is stil an idiot.

Please leave out the personal comments. We don't do that here. It doesn't help us share information, nor address the issues. The shooter here has some bad information that lead him to faulty conclusions.

_ Admin.

Flex I agree with you on the name calling but only so far as it pertains to the rules of the forum. Trying to say the shooter did this because he has some bad information is a cop out. He has the same rule book, hence the same information as the rest of us. You and I know better than to have a debate with an RO on a stage and so does he. As good as the people in the sport tend to be you still run across the occasional(insert descriptive name here). We have all seen them and we all probably know one.

Thanks for keeping the forums civil Flex.

[ac4wordplay]

Yes, he's a M, and has been doing IPSC/USPSA since ~ '92 (?). He had done the same thing to me a few times earlier in the day. He was also taking on RO responsibilities, so he likely considered himself a range official too. We had incorrect range commands used frequently, targets scored and taped while the shooter was still shooting the CoF, and a couple other funky things going on. You wouldn't have guessed that it was a points match (speaking for this squad only - doesn't reflect on the match or other squads).

Alex, would you have a bit of time to write something up to send out to the section? I can help out if you'd like or Carl or Keith. I'm thinking just a general reminder about some of the rules that seem to be getting overlooked at local matches. If not let me know and I can write it up. Just need examples ( in addition to what is here).

Chuck,

Happy to help. I'll need a few days to produce a good draft and I'd like you to have the opportunity to amend/correct/approve it before it gets distributed. It's fine with my name on it, but It seems that this sort of thing might be more appropriate coming from you or the Competition Director - what do you think? Should we get him involved? Or just have him approve and sign it (and I'll distribute it)? Or...?

Best,

ac

[Poppa Bear]

I can see Flex's point. We argue many rules here just because of how they are interpreted. IF this shooter had someone whose opinion they respect tell them it was the shooters fault if the gun goes bang, and the RO had no liability for failing to check the chamber. I could see them taking that to mean I do not need to show the chamber to the RO anymore because I will be DQ'ed if it goes bang not him. This becomes a "Well the new rules say I do not need to show you anymore" He then proceeds to tell other shooters this decision as if it was gospel. I think it would be good for all Area Directors to pass on to all Section Coordinators the need to inform ALL Match Directors that an occasional refresher on the 8.3 safety rules would be a good idea. Too include the fact that the entire section is performed OFF the clock.

[Nik Habicht]

This is what we, as shooters, need. More involvment in the local issues from the AD's, where things can get corrected before they get out of hand. Thank you, Chuck, for setting a great example to follow!

I don't want to make this a Section Coordinator vs. Area Director fight -- really I don't.....

Actually though, you guys should be getting that from your section coordinators -- ideally they'd be taking care of local issues, leaving the board to focus on the bigger picture.....

See an issue at a match, talk to the match director. He or she can't do anything about it if they don't know -- and having been one for a while, I can tell you it's impossible for an MD to know everything going on with every squad. It was also generally pretty easy for me to step in as a detached party not privy to the original issue, and to defuse it/get people to play nicely.....

If that doesn't work, or you're seeing similar issues at multiple clubs, or an issue with a specific competitor/group of competitors, send your section coordinator a quick e-mail, or give him a call. Then give him a little time to investigate and take action/request that MDs take action.....

Problem still ongoing -- contact your AD. Even though he/she is busy, they'll take the time to reach out to the section or match.....

[Nik Habicht]

. He is stil an idiot.

Please leave out the personal comments. We don't do that here. It doesn't help us share information, nor address the issues. The shooter here has some bad information that lead him to faulty conclusions.

_ Admin.

Flex I agree with you on the name calling but only so far as it pertains to the rules of the forum. Trying to say the shooter did this because he has some bad information is a cop out. He has the same rule book, hence the same information as the rest of us. You and I know better than to have a debate with an RO on a stage and so does he. As good as the people in the sport tend to be you still run across the occasional(insert descriptive name here). We have all seen them and we all probably know one.

Thanks for keeping the forums civil Flex.

Sure Kevin, but keep in mind too that we've heard one version of the story -- and the shooter may have another. He may be sincere in his belief -- and require some re-education -- or it could be something else going on. Without hearing the shooter's side of the story though, we're only guessing at the assessment....

(And I'm not questioning Butch's recollection in the slightest. Just that we don't know what was in the shooter's head...)

To spin this around -- I'm shooting a match, where you're the CRO or RM. I have a problem with your RO. From looking at this, I could form the opinion that appealing the decision is pointless, because once you hear the RO's opinion you won't hear anything else....

Bottom line -- Butch made the right call,ensuring that the chamber was empty before the shooter stepped off the line.....

[Joe4d]

competitors still must do what the RO says as long as it isnt unsafe. Even if the RO is wrong. You do what they say then argue the point after the range is clear.

[JFlowers]

My understanding.... which with $1.00 will get you a $0.50 cup of coffee...

The wording of the rule was changed to more clearly place the responsibility on the shooter. Most likely because someone arbitrated a DQ with "the RO told me to drop the hammer, so it is his responsibility not mine that the gun fired". It has always been the shooter responsibility to be responsible for his/her gun. This change in no way, removed the RO's responsibility to try and keep the sport as safe as possible by chamber checking the gun, along with the other safety steps we take.

[sperman]

Not that it matters, but the current wording has been around since at least the 2008 rulebook. It isn't exactly a "new" rule change.

[outerlimits]

once again, not my intention to disrespect anyone and not naming names. AC4WORDPLAY was my scorekeeper on that stage and after the incident he even walked up to me and sad "What?". i'm guessing he heard the same thing.

now, point of clarification...even though the 2008 rulebook changed the previous "Gun clear, hammer down" verbiage to "If clear, hammer down", theoretically putting the onus on the shooter if it goes bang, the key has always been the previous range command and the title of this topic-"Unload and SHOW CLEAR". (my emphasis on the "show clear" part). That command is not a request. in my CRO course my eons ago, dave stanford made it abundantly clear that you never let a shooter leave the firing line without knowing for certain that the weapon is unloaded. sage advice even today.

[motosapiens]

guy shoots a stage, at ULASC does the flip and starts to holster

So, wait a minute, did he pull the trigger in between the flip and starting to holster? I'm interested in the 'show clear' part, but pulling the trigger on an empty chamber is what counts imho. If he did that and nothing went bang, I'd be satisfied. If he didn't pull the trigger on an empty chamber, he's not done yet.

[Flexmoney]

guy shoots a stage, at ULASC does the flip and starts to holster

So, wait a minute, did he pull the trigger in between the flip and starting to holster? I'm interested in the 'show clear' part, but pulling the trigger on an empty chamber is what counts imho. If he did that and nothing went bang, I'd be satisfied. If he didn't pull the trigger on an empty chamber, he's not done yet.

See post #4, above, for a convenient look at the 2 rules that apply here. (you are only addressing 1 of them)