Should USPSA allow 8-shot minor in Revolver Division?

[underlug]

I agree that something should change in the revolver division. Unlike some of you I am convinced that the eight shot will make six shooters obsolete. I don't have a problem with that. I would consider it progress. After all this is supposed to be a race. I hear folks say that we should make a provisional rule and evaluate results. Evaluate what? What is the empirical data that will be analyzed? I don't think that it is fair to compare John shooting a six shooter versus Steve shooting an eight shot. I think we should have a two day match where each competitor shoots a six shooter one day shooting major and an eight shot shooting minor the other day. I think it would be interesting if we could have all classes represented as well. I think it would be very important to make sure that the course designer did not try to make the stages "revolver friendly". Perhaps using random stages from previous Area or National matches would make for realistic stages that we are all likely to encounter. After that we would have data to convince all of us, or at least me, about the arms race issue that bothers some folks. Perhaps it would be interesting to schedule a meeting to discuss this during the revolver nationals with Phil and BOD members. We have a few vocal folks on this forum, but we certainly don't have 90 people on this thread voicing ideas and opinions.

The division was rationalized at the onset as an entry level division where someone could get started in USPSA shooting one of the plethora of revolvers extant in shooters hands.

The eight shot will blow out the six shot minor shooters. If you think there will be a net gain with the addition of 8 shots, go for it. It doesn't hurt me personally as I have 627s and 25s. My opinion is that you will mostly get a transfer from 6 shooters to 8 shooters by those who think there will be an advantage to doing so.

Edited February 2, 2013 by underlug

[earplug]

Steel Challenge ok's the eight round revolvers, I think it makes sense to allow them in USPSA.

I'd like another reason to own one.

[COF]

Javier, I agree that your method would provide the cleanest data points to evaluate but how are you going to make that happen? Maybe on a local level, a guy can shoot the match with one gun and then reshoot with the other. Even this is skewed because you have already shot the stages and developed a better plan - most of the time - from that experience. So which one do you shoot first? Even with that, this may provide the best data to evaluate single shooter abilities. Having a large match with shooters of similar abilities shooting the two platforms also gives you data - only if the stages are 6/8 neutral instead of 4 target arrays. As always, course design is the key.

I don't have an 8-shot but would probably buy one if the rules were changed to allow them without the draconian ban to open.

Bottom line - You can stand on the bank all day but if you can't see the bottom, you don't know how deep the water is until you get in. Whether we wade in or jump in, we've got to get in the water to find out.

[pskys2]

I don't remember Revolver being touted as a beginners division, as Production definitely was. But it was an attempt to bring new shooters in.

One reason why at a local club level the data would be more valid. I know where I stand against the usual suspects and if someone who usually shoots 20% below me suddenly beats me by 10%, it would be telling. If the % stays about the same, it would lead to me trying an 8 shooter to see if I could increase my % against the overall.

[Carmoney]

I'm looking to make revolver division more fun to shoot!

I like a challenge, but I think pulling all my fingernails out with channel-lok pliers would be more fun than shooting a friggin' K-frame with speedloaders at a major USPSA match. On the other hand, I really enjoyed running my 627 with minor loads at the WSS revo match last weekend. Man, it was fun!

If we can make Revolver more fun to shoot--then we have the potential not just to attract ICORE shooters, but everybody from all the different games and divisions.

Now see, I think you might have just jumped the shark, because you're arguing from pure personal preference. I'm enjoying the heck out of my 686 practice but that's probably due to the new factor. Scientifically, what are the SSR vs. ESR numbers in IDPA? That should give us an idea of interest in a proportional sense.

Matt, I'm not pushing this out of personal preference, although I understand it may have sounded that way. However, I may be making a mistake in assuming that most other shooters would share my preferences and find it more fun to shoot USPSA matches with 8-shot minor, less fun to shoot 6-shot major, and no fun to shoot with speedloaders. Maybe it was just the novelty of finally getting to run my 8-shooter in Revo at a (non-sanctioned) USPSA match, but I just loved doing it!

At the end of the day, I'm fine with whatever helps the division flourish. Whatever gets the numbers up to the point that we can have good healthy competition at all levels--that's what we need. I am hopeful that all the interest in our stand-alone Nationals will trickle down and make that happen.

[Carmoney]

Although I suspect this conversation will continue, the votes on our poll have slowed down enough to get a decent read on how people feel.

I think I may have screwed up the poll questions a little--because of the way I worded the responses, I suspect we had some people click the "no" option purely because they never shoot revolver anyway, regardless of any rule change. What I meant to catch were the people who are currently shooting 625s who would actually slow down or stop shooting Revo altogether if the rule changed to allow 8-minor. My bad on possibly skewing the results with poor wording.

Nevertheless, it is obvious that a very clear majority of us (i.e. BE Forum participants who frequent the Revolver Sub-Category) like the idea of trying a rule change to allow 8-minor, at least provisionally. Still, there have been articulate arguments made on all sides of the discussion.

I think the next step is to find or create a "major match" (something like the MMC?) and allow 8-minor on a provisional, non-sanctioned basis, take a bunch of photos, and write up an article in Front Sight. The article could explain the "experiment" and encourage responses from the readership. This would allow USPSA to generate some reaction from the revolver shooters out there who are not active here on BE. It would also create some fresh exposure for revolver shooting in the magazine, which would be good either way.

[pskys2]

You are correct Mike in both your final word and your Poll. I actually voted NO, but would change that now.

I'd find it interesting to do it also. Don't know as if I could get used to Minor, can't seem to slow down in Production either.

There was talk at MC of doing something special with Revolvers, I think it was just a push to get more at a monthly though.

I'm starting to work on them to let some with 8 shooters compete heads up with the 6 shooters officially, at least for the club results. If I get them to do it, or if you guys in Iowa want to try it maybe we could go head to head and try it out? Maybe we could even do it twice with each others guns for a real side by side comparison?

Maybe you could write a Front Sight article on that even, get some bang up pix? Keep in touch about it.

Wonder if anyone in this area would put on an outlaw USPSA Match? If so I'd definitely try to make it, might even push myself to go to Memphis to try this idea? It's just such a darn long trip. You do have me seriously considering a 627 now, my accountant is going to hate you.

FWIW in 2012 the % of participation by division at the Area Matches were:

Ltd 29% - Opn 27% - Prd 25% - SSTK 10% - L10 6% - Rev 3%

Edited February 2, 2013 by pskys2

[Rogan]

So maybe the idea of a single, centrally located match where shooters get to try out both revos may be too difficult. Instead of one match, how about two or three located in different parts of the county, at different times, so more revo shooters could attend one of the outlaw, experimental matches. Az/Ca has a pretty good contingent of revo shooters who take turns traveling back and fourth between each others ranges for medium sized revo only matches. I think Rio Salado in Az could be be persuaded to hold a two day weekend match, one day for each revo style, 6-8 stages for 75-80 shooters. Considering we just had 80+ shooters run through 11 stages on friday at the WSS match (RO's and revo guys), a match of this size might be feasible as a test bed for the concept of 8 minor/6 major.

Anyone in the central area or east coast able to do a similar match?

Or maybe each area could run a small test match?

[pyrrhic3gun]

I'll just say "yes, please". Reloading in a box to make two more shots is no fun and I prefer to have fun.

Secondarily, what's so tough about having an Open Revo category for 8-shooters?.

Let's see, for pistol we have Open, Limited, Limited 10, SingleStack, Production.

One more would hurt someone's feelings? :^)

[Carmoney]

There was talk at MC of doing something special with Revolvers, I think it was just a push to get more at a monthly though.

I'm starting to work on them to let some with 8 shooters compete heads up with the 6 shooters officially, at least for the club results. If I get them to do it, or if you guys in Iowa want to try it maybe we could go head to head and try it out? Maybe we could even do it twice with each others guns for a real side by side comparison?

Maybe you could write a Front Sight article on that even, get some bang up pix? Keep in touch about it.

Cool, Dave! Let's try to get it done this summer.

[Carmoney]

So maybe the idea of a single, centrally located match where shooters get to try out both revos may be too difficult. Instead of one match, how about two or three located in different parts of the county, at different times, so more revo shooters could attend one of the outlaw, experimental matches. Az/Ca has a pretty good contingent of revo shooters who take turns traveling back and fourth between each others ranges for medium sized revo only matches. I think Rio Salado in Az could be be persuaded to hold a two day weekend match, one day for each revo style, 6-8 stages for 75-80 shooters. Considering we just had 80+ shooters run through 11 stages on friday at the WSS match (RO's and revo guys), a match of this size might be feasible as a test bed for the concept of 8 minor/6 major.

Anyone in the central area or east coast able to do a similar match?

Or maybe each area could run a small test match?

Excellent ideas.

[hopalong]

I'll put my $ .02 in.

First observation:

Revolver as a division in USPSA will always be the smallest division. The game is built for Autoloading pistols. (as are most stages except mine)

2 nd observation: Just talking about it here will always be just that (talking about it here). The powers that be at USPSA look at these forums, and occasionally add a comment or two. If the idea is to be pushed toward the leadership of USPSA someone (or several) have to get the leadership involved.

3 rd observation: Stages, by rule can't have more than 8 shots from an array or general area. The good stage designers can make their stages NO gun advantagous, but most don't or can't (Even the National Championships).

4 th observation: Because of observation 3, 8 shot guns even if scored minor have an advantage over 6 shooters shooting Major Except in the hands of the very best shooters who have the passion to prove observation 3 wrong.

My personal feelings is mixed. I would not stop shooting USPSA if the rule was changed to allow 8 shots @ minor, and I wouldn't stop shooting Revo, but I would likely go back to Autopistols more often, and just shoot a big match or two with the Revolver (My thoughts and feelings now).

I have pushed as hard or harder than most to try and help make the revolver division grow in USPSA than any in the last 8 or more years, and compared to when I started it has. I can't tell you how much by percentage vs the other divisions by percentage but Like a friend of mine said when we were talking about the MCC not growing( a whole nother subject). We are working from a small base of pretty much pureists and an outdated platform.

I voted No change for me. Life and work has consumed my shooting time in the last few years so some of the "Passion and drive" is no longer there for me. So any way it pans out (If someone can get a change in the wind going........ Carmoney you seem to talk about it more than any) is fine with me. I'll still show up and shoot something, somewhere.

Hopalong

[Henry625]

I love shooting my revolver, I did so for many years in the past. Back then, stages were more revolver friendly than now. Maybe I am at that point in life where if it ain't fun, I'm not gonna do it!

I find it frustrating to shoot a 6 shot gun in match full of 8 shot shooting positions. I know, I know, I am only competing against others like me shooting a wheel gun I keep telling myself that, but to run a pistol dry at almost every position on the stage and have to endure flat footed standing still reloads is frankly,.. painful. In my opinion, today's stages are designed to make it challenging for the Open Division shooters.

I bought an 8 shot revolver for ICORE and Steel Challenge and shoot Open Division with a dot on it. I find it refreshing and I get a sense of competitiveness back in the game. At some ICORE club matches, auto loaders are allowed to participate in their own division and a talented wheel gun pilot can hang with the best of them.

I say let's try it in USPSA, anything to bring more shooters out can't be a bad thing, especially in today's political climate.

[pskys2]

Maybe I'm lucky here in KC, but courses down here usually have so many different ways to attack that I don't get forced to do a lot of standing reloads. Or if I do it's by choice. Sometimes makes for some long or touchier shots, but that's the challenge. But I've not approached stages looking at it with 8 shots in mind, except when shooting SS and then I don't consciously look at the difference for a 6 shot.

I will start paying attention to it.

I know what you're saying Hop, I've been shooting my SS more than Revo when I do get the chance to shoot. I've always been tore between the 2 and even have a new kick ass Bar Sto in my older .45 SS and it is a tack driver. But at the local level it's worth a look.

[Bill Nesbitt]

So maybe the idea of a single, centrally located match where shooters get to try out both revos may be too difficult. Instead of one match, how about two or three located in different parts of the county, at different times, so more revo shooters could attend one of the outlaw, experimental matches.

What about an informal postal match? Someone could come up with 4 or 5 stages that could be set up the same everywhere. Each group of shooters could set it up and run however many of the stages as they could with however many types of revolvers as they want. Might be a way to get a lot of info from a lot of shooters.

[shred]

Given ICORE, et al, it's pretty clear people want to compete with revolvers. Given USPSA revolver participation, it's pretty clear most people don't want to compete in typical USPSA matches with revolvers. Are 8-shots going to change the latter point significantly?

[Rogan]

Bill, the postal match idea is great. I've got a couple of stages already printed that would fit the postal match, set it up anywhere, criteria.

Any one else want to contribute stages?

Rich Brethour

[toothguy]

Given ICORE, et al, it's pretty clear people want to compete with revolvers. Given USPSA revolver participation, it's pretty clear most people don't want to compete in typical USPSA matches with revolvers. Are 8-shots going to change the latter point significantly?

I would love to shoot ICORE locally but there isn't any, so USPSA with an 8 shooter would be the next best thing.

[No.343]

Bill, the postal match idea is great.

I agree

[lora]

Sorry I'm late to the party. I know we had this discussion a year ago, and it was quite fun. I have a few questions that need clarification and Mike, I know you have some direct experience on this. Comparing single stack major vs minor is nearly identical the same comparison as 8minor v. 6major in Rev, isn't it? As far as a reload comparison in SSTK major v. Minor and revolver 8minor v. 6major, each is a direct measure of skill in the reload of each style of gun and therefore, the the remaining skill of control, accuracy, and gamesmanship are equal. Hence, how can it be competitive in SSTK for major, with fewer rounds same process of reload, and minor with more rounds and same reload process, yet not be competitive in revolver, 8minor, more rounds same reload process and 6major less rounds same reload process. The comparison of the classes of SSTK and Rev. are identical. And yes, I assume the distinction of scoring difference major and minor is a given for the comparisons.

If there is a difference in the comparison due to the time of the reload process, can it be offset by using an increased time factor for a B,C of D hit on target for the revolver major/minor equalization, even more than the current differences.

Now the observation, Revolver class has distinct and favorable elements that if given time and more importantly more inclusion of all revolvers that will attract more auto shooters. I find that over the past few years of shooting revolver at several different local clubs, if you do it well, many auto loaders are taken by the higher level of skill, technique, and intellect, thats needed to shoot revolver competitively, rather than "running and gunning" through a COF with only 1 or 2 reloads and easily made makeup shots. This is leadership by example, the more we as a class compete competitively locally the bait is dangled, and once tasted, revolves are a comfort food. The key is shooting competitively, unfortunately it's not walking, fumbling for reloads and using a nylon thumb break holster with dump pouches or excluding technology of an additional 2 rounds.

Its becoming quite obvious to auto loader shooters that we revolver shooters get all of our brass back and the cost in the long run is actually cheaper to shoot revolvers than any other class. This combined with the introduction of a more palatable 8 shot minor gun would seem to attract more experienced auto shooters who need more confidence of the extra rounds on a 6 shot array. They just need good examples of how competitive it is and equipment to support it.

Even if the 8shot minor made the 6shot major obsolete, how is that different than what is currently a 6 shot only gun class. So what if it becomes an 8shot only gun class. Great reason to have more guns being bought and to own S&W stock.

[Shadowrider]

So maybe the idea of a single, centrally located match where shooters get to try out both revos may be too difficult. Instead of one match, how about two or three located in different parts of the county, at different times, so more revo shooters could attend one of the outlaw, experimental matches.

What about an informal postal match? Someone could come up with 4 or 5 stages that could be set up the same everywhere. Each group of shooters could set it up and run however many of the stages as they could with however many types of revolvers as they want. Might be a way to get a lot of info from a lot of shooters.

I was going to suggest that earlier with Javier's idea of picking some stages from national(s), area matches, etc. but got distracted. Surely we could get our home clubs to throw one or two of these stages into our regular matches? It could be done over the course of a year if need be and it seems that some good data would be obtained. Roger did something similar with the OK crew but it was a small sample. I'd bet we see the same results but it would be nice to see a bigger data set across classifications.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Shadowrider

[jester121]

Comparing single stack major vs minor is nearly identical the same comparison as 8minor v. 6major in Rev, isn't it?

I think it was mentioned earlier that the USPSA no-more-than-8-shots-per-position thing is the big difference, because some stage designers tend to (unfortunately) use 8 as a requirement instead of a limit. Not a problem reload-wise for single stack in .45 or 9mm (8+1 or 10+1) but a big difference for anyone with a 6-shot vs. an 8-shot.

In a portal-heavy stage, sometimes there's just no way to creatively break down the stage to address this.

[PatJones]

If there were a bunch of 8-shot revo owners out there just dying to shoot USPSA, they'd be shooting them in Production already.

I do shoot my 627 in production and I beat 50% of the other production shooters at nearly every local match, but I would rather it say "revolver" next to my name in the overall.

I stand by my oft-repeated contention that moving from a division where only three or four guns are possibly competitive to a division where only a single gun is competitive is a negative,

I don't see a difference. What we have now is a division where there is only one competitive gun; a 5" 625. A gun that is no longer produced.

The division was rationalized at the onset as an entry level division where someone could get started in USPSA shooting one of the plethora of revolvers extant in shooters hands.

I don't see Revo as an entry level division. The barrier to revolvers is not the reloads, it's the trigger, and the effort it takes to master it.

Wasn't power factor devised as a way to _balance_ the advantage of the higher capacity 9mm autoloaders? Aside from Production, which scores everyone minor, Revolver is the only division that does not offer a capacity advantage to those who chose to shoot a smaller caliber. Admittedly 9mm major is allowed in open.

If we allow revolvers with a capacity in excess of 6 to shoot to capacity but scored minor it brings us in line with SS, Limited and L10. If it does create a class where one revolver is more competitive than the others it will be no different than what we have now, but that revolver will be current production. If you want new shooters, the competitive gun must be commercially available.

Finally, as Carmoney said, shooting USPSA with an 8-shot revolver is fun. For many people, shooting 8 round friendly courses with a 6 shooters is not fun. If Revolver division is more fun for more people the numbers will increase.

I vote yes.

-pat

[Koppi]

I to am late to this awesome topic.

The more choices the better, 6 major or 8 minor it's up to the shooter. Put optics on them and call them "Open". Why not? We have rules in place for "Open" major/minor already. I think that brings in new/more shooters. I believe good stage design will rule. i.e. 6 round neutral. I've noticed this same dilemma with stage design at SSN. It seems to me, that match ends up having very few minor shooters maybe, its because, points rule. All that is for next year--this year I want to see how Jerry, Matt and even Rob shake out on an even field. Heck I wanna know how I'll end up against the best in the world!

Also, I would support the Postal Match Idea.----When can we start?

Me name is John Koppi--for Mr. Rob--I'd post a picture if it wouldn't break the net :-)

[Blueridge]

How about instead of changing the rules for revolver division, the rules for open be changed. Add Open revolver category for any revolvers with a capacity over 6 or using other than iron sights.