Should USPSA allow 8-shot minor in Revolver Division?

[toothguy]

How about instead of changing the rules for revolver division, the rules for open be changed. Add Open revolver category for any revolvers with a capacity over 6 or using other than iron sights.

+1, Many of the older revolver shooters I know are getting to where they can't see well enought to use iron sights. If they could shoot open revolver it would give them more time in the game, like what Bullseye did.

[Ty Hamby]

It is a little ironic that those who oppose the ideas proposed here are all the same ones who own and shoot a gun that unobtainable today outside of worn out and used. If there were equal or better options available on the market some like me would run out and buy one and join in. I applaud the discussion and ask that the powers that be figure out a way to let others play. If Revolver is a good ol' boys club then call it what it is.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[xpd54]

I've been watching this thread since Dragon11 let me know about it and thought I would chime in. I'm a new revolver shooter. I started shooting last year with a 3" Model 65 and speedloaders. I knew I wouldn't be competitive, but at the time that wasn't of interest. I just wanted to improve my revolver skills. I really began to enjoy it and decided to get serious about shooting revolver. I researched the different games (ICORE, IDPA and USPSA) to see which revolver would be best to buy. I settled on a 686 SSR because it allowed me to shoot all three games and be relatively competitive.

After reading this entire thread and giving it alot of thought, here's what I think would bring more revolver shooters into the game:

- All revolvers are scored minor, regardless of caliber (using ICOREs power factor rules)

- 7/8 shot revos allowed, but with 6 shots fired maximum, with procedural penalties for each shot past that (not placed in open)

- moon clip or speedloader reloads allowed

Let me explain why. If the goal is to get shooters interested in shooting revolver, make it easy to get into the game like production division is. Many of the production shooters I know are like me - they don't reload and just buy factory ball ammo to shoot the match. Using the ICORE ammo rules, a guy with any old 6 shooter and speedloaders can come and play and only have really one handicap - speedloaders vs. moonclips. Being doubly handicapped by using speedloaders and also being scored minor can be quite discouraging. If and when they decide they like revolver shooting they can then spend a little money and have their cylinder cut for moon clips. This is much cheaper than buying a new gun. By not barring the 7/8 shot guns, we don't discourage guys with those guns from coming out to play. If you think about it, the 7/8 shot guys would still have a slight advantage. I know from watching some of my revolver buddies (who reload their own ammo) that having that 7th or 8th shot already loaded and ready to go when you have the inevitable misfire is definitely a benefit.

Just my 2 cents.

Edited February 3, 2013 by xpd54

[toothguy]

What Blueridge said seems simple and doesn't alienate anyone. Just adding an open revolver division for anything over 6 shots, comp, optic ect. would add shooters that want to do that and keep the current shooters happy. Bringing an 8 shot and trying to only shoot 6 is a pain, I don't think anyone is going to do that.

[warpspeed]

I think that the USPSA should implement this 8-shot revo idea as provisional like they did with the single stack.

It would give them time to collect data and see just how it fits in.

[shred]

I think that the USPSA should implement this 8-shot revo idea as provisional like they did with the single stack.

It would give them time to collect data and see just how it fits in.

Yeah, Nationals participation worked so well to decide if it was a "success or not" when you have a dedicated single-stack nationals...

It would need a lot more detailed "success" criteria around it.

[lora]

Accuracy, power and speed are tenants or IPSC, open, limited, single stack all have rules that apply to the lower power and capacity balance scale, why should Revolver class be any different, the offset of major for 6 shooters vs 8 shooter minor is enough, major may need to work on faster reloading.

There is a group already that divides revolver into all the possible classes, its called ICORE. We are talking about IPSC. Yes, I actually prefer ICORE, but the tenants of IPSC apply. Throttle-back doesn't fit IPSC ideology well.

Edited February 3, 2013 by lora

[Brynjulv]

It's hard to find a good 5" 625 for IPSC and it wears out fast compared to pistols.

I'm meddeling in revolverdivision and I would go for it 100% if there was a reliable source of competetive guns.

170-175 pf in a 4" too much bang for me.

I'd be happy too shoot a 38 super 627 minor if shooting all 8 was allowed.

[pskys2]

Right now this is what we have and it may still be the best option. Seems like quite a few would not mind an experimental change, but there are still doubts.

But the biggest issue at hand is making the opportunity of the 2013 Revolver Nationals a sold out event. It's close looks like it could be up to 95 of 120 now.

If we show there are some numbers, and maybe we can get some positive attention.

In that vein, those that have been talking of change, and who are not already signed up for the Nats, step up and get signed in. Even if you have to borrow any other 6 shot Revolver, I shot a 4" M29 for years. Come out put your support in and talk up a change while you're there.

Hope to see you there.

[bdpaz]

This morning at Rio Salado we had 43 shooters at our monthly ICORE match. We had 36 sign up for the revolver day at WSSSC where 8 shot minor (essentially ICORE Limited) was allowed. Last month our four USPSA matches had five different revolver shooters shooting a total of seven times (a match with 1 shooter, a match with 1 shooter, a match with 3 shooters, a match with 2 shooters).

While I can't speak for everyone, I know that many did not start by researching revolver sports, choosing ICORE, then buying appropriate pistols & gear. They started as people who enjoy shooting revolvers and went looking at the options available to them. Here they have clearly chosen ICORE over USPSA. I personally believe that many of our ICORE shooters would also shoot USPSA if their equipment was allowed. We are going to conduct a local experiment to test this by adding an unofficial outlaw revolver division. We'll encourage revo shooters to sign up in the USPSA division appropriate for their gun & gear then take the detailed results and manually calculate our own revolver results. In addition to encouraging revo shooters to do this at any of our USPSA matches we hope to have one per month where we stay after the main match and offer the chance to shoot again so those with current USPSA revolvers can shoot with a different configuration and compare the results of different guns in the same match.

The details are still in the discussion stage but we'll probably have Limited 6 shot major and 8 shot minor plus Open major and minor (no capacity distinction) but we might add 8 shot major. If we do, we'll break out the results between 8 shot major and minor.

We likely all have different reasons for this but for me, I feel that revolvers are just plain fun (except for 6 shooters in USPSA ). Revolvers aren't the latest in tacti-billy high tech firepower so I don't see the need for restrictive rules to limit the "arms race". I just want to find a way for me and others to shot more revolvers more often.

Edited to add: I don't think there is much chance of USPSA adding Open Revo but it's an experiment so we might as well let the cool kids play too.

Edited February 3, 2013 by bdpaz

[Cd662]

" Using the ICORE ammo rules, a guy with any old 6 shooter and speedloaders can come and play and only have really one handicap - speedloaders vs. moonclips. Being doubly handicapped by using speedloaders and also being scored minor can be quite discouraging."

Respectfully, this isn't ICORE. Besides, most people who are the "dust the old gun off and shoot" folks don't have that many speedloaders. For a 28 shot field course and assuming someone loads initially by hand, you'd need four at the minimum. It is doubtful that the "just getting into the game" people are going to be 100% accurate and one missed shot may require a reload, so realistically, you need two more to overcome any oops factors or mechanical problems (shortstroking, light strikes, etc). Six HKS speedloaders are 90 - 100 bucks, 6 Safariland COMP IIIs are 120. If someone is at an introductory level, they probably have a velcro style pouch or one of those Bianchi style double pouches with the snap closure on top. You'd need three of those, which is another 45 - 60 dollars. Then, the person purchasing factory ammunition has to pay 25 dollars a box for factory ammo which won't even make minor power factor, so there's another 75. Add 20 bucks for entry or so and we're up to 255 bucks for "trying it out". Shortly thereafter, the person will come to the realization that this is the wrong gear. Sure, they can switch to moonclips and get a cylinder machined, but then they need moonclips and another whole set of carriers/holders. Respectfully, I just don't understand this "we must draw new people into the game" thing in terms of absolute newbies. Existing action shooters are aware of gear requirements and have social connections to sometimes try something out, so at least they have some reasonable expectations.

[TGO]

" Using the ICORE ammo rules, a guy with any old 6 shooter and speedloaders can come and play and only have really one handicap - speedloaders vs. moonclips. Being doubly handicapped by using speedloaders and also being scored minor can be quite discouraging."

Respectfully, this isn't ICORE. Besides, most people who are the "dust the old gun off and shoot" folks don't have that many speedloaders. For a 28 shot field course and assuming someone loads initially by hand, you'd need four at the minimum. It is doubtful that the "just getting into the game" people are going to be 100% accurate and one missed shot may require a reload, so realistically, you need two more to overcome any oops factors or mechanical problems (shortstroking, light strikes, etc). Six HKS speedloaders are 90 - 100 bucks, 6 Safariland COMP IIIs are 120. If someone is at an introductory level, they probably have a velcro style pouch or one of those Bianchi style double pouches with the snap closure on top. You'd need three of those, which is another 45 - 60 dollars. Then, the person purchasing factory ammunition has to pay 25 dollars a box for factory ammo which won't even make minor power factor, so there's another 75. Add 20 bucks for entry or so and we're up to 255 bucks for "trying it out". Shortly thereafter, the person will come to the realization that this is the wrong gear. Sure, they can switch to moonclips and get a cylinder machined, but then they need moonclips and another whole set of carriers/holders. Respectfully, I just don't understand this "we must draw new people into the game" thing in terms of absolute newbies. Existing action shooters are aware of gear requirements and have social connections to sometimes try something out, so at least they have some reasonable expectations.

I agree.

The ammo thing has to be addressed since ICORE allows lighter than PF ammo to compete as long as it's one of the approved factory loads.

1st bad news. There ain't any in the stores anymore kiddies!

2nd bad news. That stuff won't knock down the pepper poppers. They aren't going to change the power factors to less than 125 just to let revolvers to compete. They can't change the way they test the poppers and set them lighter. We gotta make 125.

The idea of revo open also is a dream right now. Until we show enough support for existing division, they are not really going to consider a new one.

And the new guy coming out to shoot his speedloaders and 6 shooter, I'm not sure how long he will keep coming back to do that.

As I get older, I do see the need for the use of optics! Just not here not yet. Get it, I "see" the need? I'm going to try to get Carmoney to start a new thread on another idea I have brought up to Phil about this.

[toothguy]

Many times I have to put on my cheaters to see the need.

[Bill Nesbitt]

I had another idea about gathering information. It appears that several people are shooting both the SS Nats and the Revolver Nats. I don't know how much they will change the stages between the 2 matches.

Would it be possible after the match to re-score the SS results to all minor and compare each shooters scores on both matches? That might be a way to compare 8 rounds to 6 rounds. It won't be exact but it might shed some light.

[Dragon11]

Thats a good idea. Can't you do that with a match thats already been shot?

[Flexmoney]

Point of order, per the USPSA Bylaws:

16.2 Competition Equipment Rules Modifications:

Changes to U.S. Division rules affecting personal competition equipment shall be adopted for a specific

Division no more frequently than every two years except as may be required to comply with federal laws.

Those changes must be published in the corporate newsletter three months prior to effective date.

Ah Cmon Flex were Revo's we're so out there can't they vector a bit off the norm .

But you are right, won't happen too soon. But I still say some kind of forum after/during the Revo Nats in May would be a good first start. Might turn out to be a dead end, or could really light up some interest.

Somebody could run a match that wasn't a Level I, II or III USPSA match. It could be a "recognized" match (with prior approval from USPSA).

[Edit to add:]

For that matter, if somebody were running a dedicated revolver match, they could just run our regular Revolver division and then put the 8-shots in Open division. Then, just post the combined "unofficial" results.

[Flexmoney]

Steel Challenge ok's the eight round revolvers, I think it makes sense to allow them in USPSA.

There is no format more friendly to an 8-shot revolver shooter than Steel Challenge. (No reloads and 3 extra shots. If you need more than 3 extra shots...you already blew the string)... And yet...we don't see a lot of revolver shooters at the Steel Challenge matches.

[seanc]

As I get older, I do see the need for the use of optics! Just not here not yet. Get it, I "see" the need? I'm going to try to get Carmoney to start a new thread on another idea I have brought up to Phil about this.

prod optics? slide mounted only, but all other prod rules apply?

That is something I would support.

[Flexmoney]

It has been stated the 625 isn't made/available currently. Is the 627 available? I just check Bud's and CTD and they are both out of stock.

Along that line of thinking...I was working a deal (fell through) on buying a 625 to shoot the Revo Nationals with this year. I'd be quite a bit put off if I bought one, then the games switched on me.

[TGO]

Steel Challenge ok's the eight round revolvers, I think it makes sense to allow them in USPSA.

There is no format more friendly to an 8-shot revolver shooter than Steel Challenge. (No reloads and 3 extra shots. If you need more than 3 extra shots...you already blew the string)... And yet...we don't see a lot of revolver shooters at the Steel Challenge matches.

Well, it is the steel challenge. Obviously that is not a popular a venue as USPSA. we don't see a lot of any shooters at the Steel Challenge. It is a circus event like Bianchi and because it is so specialized will never be as widely attended as USPSA practical pistol.

As I get older, I do see the need for the use of optics! Just not here not yet. Get it, I "see" the need? I'm going to try to get Carmoney to start a new thread on another idea I have brought up to Phil about this.

prod optics? slide mounted only, but all other prod rules apply?

That is something I would support.

Many folks have looked at this and there are some real issues in trying to institute it. Not sure it could work other than the local level. I just think in some way it has to be addressed. It makes way more sense to the grass roots and equipment development than anything else new.

[TGO]

It has been stated the 625 isn't made/available currently. Is the 627 available? I just check Bud's and CTD and they are both out of stock.

Along that line of thinking...I was working a deal (fell through) on buying a 625 to shoot the Revo Nationals with this year. I'd be quite a bit put off if I bought one, then the games switched on me.

Yes, several 8 shot models are manufactured by not only Smith and Wesson but also Taurus. The 5" 625 is not currently being manufactured. There are lots of guns you can shoot not only this year but after, regardless of whether the 8 minor thing happens.

If you are looking for a way to shoot the class without an investment, you are probably not really behind it. Are you just wanting to shoot the Nationals because you can do it by staying one more day? If so that's cool, but those guys that live the wheel will be making the decisions on this when you and I are shooting the other divisions the rest of the year. I'm and admitted closet revo guy. I can finally shoot the Nationals because of the format. I can tell you I have and will be training for this, not just showing up and staying another day.

Anybody else relish the chance to have it out with these revo guys or am I the only bottom feeder who is really gonna try?

[Carmoney]

Anybody else relish the chance to have it out with these revo guys or am I the only bottom feeder who is really gonna try?

I am very curious to see which of the well-known GMs from other divisions have signed up to shoot the 2013 Revo Nationals. Rob will be there, and I know Shannon Smith will be there. Who else?

To tell you the truth, I really respect anybody who is willing to stick his neck out and shoot this match with equipment that is so different than what he normally shoots in competition! On the other hand, at the end of the day, shooting is still shooting. The top GMs all know how to get through a stage efficiently, and they know how to hit what they're aiming at. This is going to be a great match, and I'm really looking forward to being part of it.

[Koppi]

I have been setting up, i.e. new used 625's, holster, belt, moon-clips, moon-clip loader and de-loader and gunsmithing. Next, dry firing since Nationals-- I started shooting wheel win I got my first colt SS in .22 at 10. I love'em, I'm so happy with this! and wanna thank Rob, Phil and whom ever else was involved in making this National venue happen. So Yes, I'm going to give this a real try. I'm just a A class (really a C)

[Koppi]

I think there is a list on here somewhere?

[Flexmoney]

Anybody else relish the chance to have it out with these revo guys or am I the only bottom feeder who is really gonna try?

What I want to see is somebody WIN 5 National titles this year. Single-Stack, Revolver, Production, Limited and Open.

It might have to be Nils. (or Bob or Dave) ...since you aren't ready to shoot the red dot yet.