Should USPSA allow 8-shot minor in Revolver Division?

[TGO]

Lots of good thoughts here. I really enjoy all the input from so many interested parties. 250 posts on this thing, I'd say revo should be alive and well.

I wish all the matches could be run in a manner that no defined amount of shots are required from any position and the COF designers understood or cared about keeping it balanced. Although we have lots of shooting around here, I can see why clubs other than my home one have IDPA shooters and we do not. Do you really wanna do 7 reloads with your 625? Not many here do...

The 8 shot from a position thing was started so as to remove some of the hi capacity magazine necessity. It didn't stop shooters from selecting the highest capacity option in a division and those divisions now flourish. I don't want revolver to become a place where you just gotta have an 8 shooter but you are gonna have to make a choice. Is it good for the division or not. The Western States Revolver challenge difinetely showed that in a course of fire not 6 round neutral, the capacity was a big advantage. I bet that like the SS Nationals is designed to be fair to 8 shooters in a world of 10 shooters, the course of fire for the Revo Nationals will be designed so that IF the 8 minor thing was allowed, It would be hard to decide which was better. That would be a good thing.

A point to make is that at our local matches, most of the match directors ignore things like 8 shot neutral and 32 round max per stage. 6 shooters on the 40 round courses we get around here can really be a test of reload speed. The shooting can become much lower priority. I do agree that at club level, skill being equal, the 6 shooter is gonna have his work cut out for him if the COF designers do not care.

Then again, I like my 627's minor recoil a lot more than my 625's major...

[diehli]

I do agree that at club level, skill being equal, the 6 shooter is gonna have his work cut out for him if the COF designers do not care.

Isn't it at the local level that Revo needs to grow? As Cliff said, if it's the National level that's the bellwether, problem solved.

Then again, I like my 627's minor recoil a lot more than my 625's major...

So why not campaign for making Revo minor? Why the focus on the 8-shooters?

Seems you and others really want those extra 2 rounds. That's what all of this appears to boil down to, wanting the higher capacity. Well, great. What do you tell the 6-shooters? Tough noogies?

[Dragon11]

It seems to me that there are three options we're looking at here. First, make no changes and leave the division alone. Second, bring in the eight shot minor rule. Third, make revolver dvision minor across the board and leave it at six shots. Knowing this, what are we trying to gain versus what we are willing to loose?

Most of the people who religiously shoot revolver division right now obviously enjoy shooting it with six shots, the way it is now, because they enjoy shooting it that way. So leaving the division the way it is now obviously isn't going to hurt there feelings. If we bring in the eight shot minors, the 627's, it could bring in more shooters and allow people with those guns to compete and shoot with them in the revolver division. Thats the positive side to that. The negative is that it could be viewed as being a more competitive gun versus the six shooters and either out gun or out shoot them, pushing the 625's or 610's, and the people who enjoy shooting them, out of the division. If you make the division six shot minor the possibility still exists to bring in more shooters and the current steadfast religious revolver guys still can shoot there 625's, 610's or any other six gun.

I don't think anybody disagrees that we're looking for a change to bring in more shooters to the revolver division. To me, at its core value, the revolver division was started as a six gun division. The challenges of the six shot are what brought me into it. Personally, if no changes are made to the division, other then not bringing in more shooters, I'm not going to complain, I like it the way it is. But, if I had to make the choice I would rather make a change that brought in more shooters, but, didn't create the possibility of pushing "any" current ones out. I don't think everyone in this forum believes that. But, I would rather first try a change that errored towards bringing in more shooters and keeping "all" of the current ones, then going the other direction. Either leave the division the way it is, or lets make baby steps, make the division minor with six shots, and lets try it for a while and see what happens. If that doesn't work, try bringing in the eight shots.

Edited February 6, 2013 by Dragon11

[lora]

With the survey leaning toward 8 shot inclusion and a significant number of those who would compete at "about the same," rate, perhaps a survey of who or how many of the revolver current competitors have 8 shot revolvers and of those who are not current that would compete as new to the division if 8 shooters were allowed. Forget the major minor,8 v.6 issue let the power factor determine that as the current rules stands.

Yes, the 625 may go the way of the L10 but maybe it should. Isn't that why nobody uses a single action .45. Technology wins.

It might reflect that what we are talking about is moot if there are more, and this is key, revolver shooting competitors with 8 shooters already or would want to acquire one over a 6 shooter to begin with. Lets get ahead of the trend before any one else buys an obsolete gun. Please, don't kill me for suggesting a 625 is obsolete but if I were back to the beginning of choosing a gun to start with, and I could choose a legal 627, your damn right the the choice would be easy.

The point made about the availability of the "top gun", a 5" 625, that is not a current catalogue item, whereas, a 627 or 327 is, is a valid concern when considering future growth of division. If the numbers suggest a majority of us have an 8 shooter already, then what are we talking about.

The previous point of the division contrary to hopes, is not necessarily a "new shooter" division. This appears to be supported by the low numbers of shooters who are competing or, as is used as a selling point, dusting off their old 6 shot 38/357 and being new to the division is just not happening. In fact, if that we're true, they would be at such a deficit without a 625 or 610 that they would be at the same decision point of buying a new gun. Why make them buy an obsolete gun.

After reviewing this, all that would be required is a rule change of eliminating the 7 round shot moving shooter into open division. And maybe letting all 6 shooters be classed as major.

Edited February 6, 2013 by lora

[Carmoney]

To me, at its core value, the revolver division was started as a six gun division. The challenges of the six shot are what brought me into it. Personally, if no changes are made to the division, other then not bringing in more shooters, I'm not going to complain, I like it the way it is.

Just so everybody understands my motivations here.....I personally would benefit from the rules staying the same. I generally finish in the Top 5 at Nationals, and I have won a whole bunch of sectional and area matches in Revolver Division.

It was fun. But then participation started to drop off.

Last year I could have shot Revolver at Area 3 and Area 5 and easily won them both. I could have breezed my way into two more plaques and two more prize guns. But they would have been virtually uncontested victories, and what would that mean? So I shot SS instead, and got beaten by better SS shooters, but at least there was real competition.

The perverse truth is that attracting more shooters into Revolver Division does not personally benefit the current upper-level Revolver shooters, including me. But the overall health of the division is more important than the self-interest of a few people, and that's why I think we need to start getting creative and find some real ways to grow it. I think 8-minor has the potential to attract more people to Revolver, but I'm open to pretty much anything at this point.

[cheryl]

Why can't Revolver be split into 6 shot and 8 shot divisions?

[pskys2]

Lots of good thoughts here. I really enjoy all the input from so many interested parties. 250 posts on this thing, I'd say revo should be alive and well.

I wish all the matches could be run in a manner that no defined amount of shots are required from any position and the COF designers understood or cared about keeping it balanced. Although we have lots of shooting around here, I can see why clubs other than my home one have IDPA shooters and we do not. Do you really wanna do 7 reloads with your 625? Not many here do...

The 8 shot from a position thing was started so as to remove some of the hi capacity magazine necessity. It didn't stop shooters from selecting the highest capacity option in a division and those divisions now flourish. I don't want revolver to become a place where you just gotta have an 8 shooter but you are gonna have to make a choice. Is it good for the division or not. The Western States Revolver challenge difinetely showed that in a course of fire not 6 round neutral, the capacity was a big advantage. I bet that like the SS Nationals is designed to be fair to 8 shooters in a world of 10 shooters, the course of fire for the Revo Nationals will be designed so that IF the 8 minor thing was allowed, It would be hard to decide which was better. That would be a good thing.

A point to make is that at our local matches, most of the match directors ignore things like 8 shot neutral and 32 round max per stage. 6 shooters on the 40 round courses we get around here can really be a test of reload speed. The shooting can become much lower priority. I do agree that at club level, skill being equal, the 6 shooter is gonna have his work cut out for him if the COF designers do not care.

Then again, I like my 627's minor recoil a lot more than my 625's major...

What would be the results if the 8 shot/position rule were changed to 12 shot/position vs 6 shot/position?

Taking into consideration human nature you would soon see more rounds, in general, at a position. Forcing standing reloads by about everyone but the Hi Caps. Yet with a 32 round limit overall it would reduce the positions or possibly open up the engagement options.

Good courses would give multiple options, bad courses would suck even more. Most local courses max out the shot per position, and then stretch'em a bit more if they can get away with it.

But it would cover all of the Revo, SS, L10 and Production limitations.

I've come to not like the Revo Neutral courses as they are generally boring. With a 6 shot Revo and an 8 shot position, or more, average course design gives you engagement options that make you think. Being forced by course design to shooting 6, 8 or 10 whatever your capacity is and scooting takes away from a course.

[Bubber]

Why can't Revolver be split into 6 shot and 8 shot divisions?

At this point there is not enough partcipation in Revo Division the thought is that dividing the division will just make the curren 6 shot smaller and not add many to an 8 shot division. I tried for a year to get shooter to bring out the 8 shot and shoot against the 6 shot on an equal field and shoot it to its capacity. I did not add anymore shooters.

It has been suggested by a few to make the pf of revo minor only as production. And this will open up the division to the L and K frames. The 625 would lose the advaantage of being able to make Major easier but retain the consistance of its reload. Diehli and Dreagon 11 made some good points. Later rdd

[David Olhasso]

If revolver division is amended to allow 8-shot minor, then the only way to be competitive will be to use an 8 shot gun. The only matches where this may not hold true would be a match setup to be 100% 6-round neutral where each stage is setup so that all shooters, regardless of capacity, would need to perform the same number of reloads (assuming no extra shots). All the limited shooters at least years ICORE match got shown how this is true when our 8-shot guns got beat by Josh's 6-shot classic gun. Of course, the only match that might be 6-shot netural would be a revolver only nationals.

So if revolver division allwos 8-shot minor guns, it will no doubt become a 627 division. Those who have 625s will either be at a significant disadvantage or have their expenssive 625s relagated to collecting dust in the safe.

[Flexmoney]

Technology wins.

Jeez. Stop with that "technology" stuff. It is just to ironic to mention that in Revolver.

This isn't a technology discussion. This discussion is about capacity. I've watched local (non-affiliated) matches try to pander to the capacity seekers. Everybody wants more. Always.

Here, we are talking about going to 8, to meet the arbitrary (but established) number of 8 shots per shooting location. It's to make it fun (easier). Which is another irony, as I have been told time and time again about how solving the problem with 6 rounds is such an integral part of shooting Revo in USPSA.

[lora]

Technology wins.

Here, we are talking about going to 8, to meet the arbitrary (but established) number of 8 shots per shooting location. It's to make it fun (easier). Which is another irony, as I have been told time and time again about how solving the problem with 6 rounds is such an integral part of shooting Revo in USPSA.

I thought it was exploring how to improve or increase fun, and revolver competitor numbers into the division. If you don't like technology then why have improved speed holsters, bobbed hammers and the likes.

[TGO]

I do agree that at club level, skill being equal, the 6 shooter is gonna have his work cut out for him if the COF designers do not care.

Isn't it at the local level that Revo needs to grow? As Cliff said, if it's the National level that's the bellwether, problem solved.

Then again, I like my 627's minor recoil a lot more than my 625's major...

So why not campaign for making Revo minor? Why the focus on the 8-shooters?

Seems you and others really want those extra 2 rounds. That's what all of this appears to boil down to, wanting the higher capacity. Well, great. What do you tell the 6-shooters? Tough noogies?

So as not to take the currently used 6 shooters advantage away. You are over simplifying the whole issue. There is no do just this then this will happen scenario. You already can shoot minor 6. maintaing major for only the 6 shooter is critical to keeping them relevant. Go back and read all the posts in this thread again, then see if you can't figure out what various opinions actually are.

I am just one voice. Others feel the same as me. I see you do not want this 8 shooter thing to be in place. OK.

[TGO]

It seems to me that there are three options we're looking at here. First, make no changes and leave the division alone. Second, bring in the eight shot minor rule. Third, make revolver dvision minor across the board and leave it at six shots. Knowing this, what are we trying to gain versus what we are willing to loose?

Most of the people who religiously shoot revolver division right now obviously enjoy shooting it with six shots, the way it is now, because they enjoy shooting it that way. So leaving the division the way it is now obviously isn't going to hurt there feelings. If we bring in the eight shot minors, the 627's, it could bring in more shooters and allow people with those guns to compete and shoot with them in the revolver division. Thats the positive side to that. The negative is that it could be viewed as being a more competitive gun versus the six shooters and either out gun or out shoot them, pushing the 625's or 610's, and the people who enjoy shooting them, out of the division. If you make the division six shot minor the possibility still exists to bring in more shooters and the current steadfast religious revolver guys still can shoot there 625's, 610's or any other six gun.

I don't think anybody disagrees that we're looking for a change to bring in more shooters to the revolver division. To me, at its core value, the revolver division was started as a six gun division. The challenges of the six shot are what brought me into it. Personally, if no changes are made to the division, other then not bringing in more shooters, I'm not going to complain, I like it the way it is. But, if I had to make the choice I would rather make a change that brought in more shooters, but, didn't create the possibility of pushing "any" current ones out. I don't think everyone in this forum believes that. But, I would rather first try a change that errored towards bringing in more shooters and keeping "all" of the current ones, then going the other direction. Either leave the division the way it is, or lets make baby steps, make the division minor with six shots, and lets try it for a while and see what happens. If that doesn't work, try bringing in the eight shots.

Making minor 6 will immediately change the landscape and probably not appeal to those who are not shooting now. It will just mean we all go buy 686's and have them moon clipped and shoot 38 short colt. That is no different than buying an 8 shooter except that very few of those 6 shot moon clip guns are out there being used.

I think the number should be minor 7, but that makes no logical sense. It would not get the guys out who wanna do less reloads and already have the far more popular 8 shooters.

When the division was organized as it is now, I must admit that I was supportive of the 6 shot only rule. I assumed this would allow me to shoot my current L frame with speedloaders. It is obvious very few want to go that route. Now we need changes.

Remember, this is only a theoretical issue at this point. But, next time I see Phil he's gonna get my opinions....

[TGO]

Technology wins.

Jeez. Stop with that "technology" stuff. It is just to ironic to mention that in Revolver.

This isn't a technology discussion. This discussion is about capacity. I've watched local (non-affiliated) matches try to pander to the capacity seekers. Everybody wants more. Always.

Here, we are talking about going to 8, to meet the arbitrary (but established) number of 8 shots per shooting location. It's to make it fun (easier). Which is another irony, as I have been told time and time again about how solving the problem with 6 rounds is such an integral part of shooting Revo in USPSA.

Not everybody wants standing 32 round positions. Obviously you are enamored with the Hi capacity thing. OK, enjoy, but watch the "EVERYBODY wants more. Always." That's not true. IDPA exists because USPSA thinks this way. IDPA is growing faster and is now larger than USPSA if the numbers I am told are true.

With respect I need to ask, do you shoot a revolver ever, or are you just interested in the topic and being heard? I mean that not as an accusation, just to see your level of involvement.

[Matt Griffin]

Again, FWIW, I do enjoy the inherent difficulties of six shots, that's one of the main reasons I shoot a revolver. The other is so that I can try and beat Jerry Miculek, since I decided I couldn't beat Rob Leatham at the SS Nationals with a 1911, as they are much less lefty-friendly than a revolver. Both have since been beaten but I stay with the revolver because it suits my love of overly-complicated things.

I realize that I am NOT the target audience if you want to try and capture "the typical shooter."

[TGO]

Again, FWIW, I do enjoy the inherent difficulties of six shots, that's one of the main reasons I shoot a revolver. The other is so that I can try and beat Jerry Miculek, since I decided I couldn't beat Rob Leatham at the SS Nationals with a 1911, as they are much less lefty-friendly than a revolver. Both have since been beaten but I stay with the revolver because it suits my love of overly-complicated things.

I realize that I am NOT the target audience if you want to try and capture "the typical shooter."

Matt, do not under value your role in this. Not sure what a typical shooter is anymore. I probably care more what You, Jerry, Mike and Cliff think than anyone else. As the ones who are at the top of the division (and others I'm just not acquainted with) you have the most to gain or lose from issues regarding the wheel. I just think more folks would shoot them if there were an easier option than 6 shot major. Change is always scary and as proven in the last 5 years, not always a good thing. But if we evolve into something with more participation, that should be good?

[Buffalobolt]

"I do shoot my 627 in production and I beat 50% of the other production shooters at nearly every local match, but I would rather it say "revolver" next to my name in the overall."

+1

[lcs]

I am not a revolver shooter in USPSA, but damn sure would like to be. I grew up on revolvers.

Everything evolves.

The average shooter has to factor in the "cost", 2000 MG (230GN) 45 are $325, 3750 MG (124GN) 9MM $320. 45 Brass versus 9MM another ouch. Even if you reduce the cost by using lead--Still a big price difference.

People don't hear about USPSA and think Revo. Off-the-shelf guns are 9MM in today's enviornment.

I think 8 shot minor would attract some new shooters. Out of our local area (4 clubs), I think there are 2 or 3 revo shooters and I see them using 8 shot revos more and more.

Not that I matter, but I think 8 shot minor is good thing.....At least a trial period and see what happens.

Edited February 6, 2013 by lcs

[Shadowrider]

Okay lets muddy the waters further. What would happen if we allow 8 shot major?

and

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allowed comped barrels on iron sighted guns in revolver division? :surprise:

We all know that there are some 627 V-comps hanging out on nightstands across the country. What effect would that have?

Edited February 6, 2013 by Shadowrider

[Richard Koester]

I'm on Cliff's side of the fence. Solving the puzzel is where the challenge and the fun is. Squadded with the top shooters at last year's nationals only reinforced this view.

I'm primarily a 627 ICORE shooter. ICORE strives to make their courses 6 round neutral but we game 'em. Unless the course description forces you to load after 6, I find most of my moons have been fired 8 times. When the stage designer is successful in their 6 round neutral attempt. I find the stage somewhat stale. I don't want to see this happen to USPSA revolver division. Don't give me 3 target arrays in an attempt to take away the 8 shot advantage. Big field courses with high round count are great. Bring 'em on. I've never run out of moons. Standing reloads? Not really. Even if forced to shoot from one position, I'm still shifting during the reload to gain some kind of advantage, Recoil, well there is that, I find i quit thinking about it after a couple of moons. However, a drop in power factor is not a deal breaker for me. My hands are getting older too.

I applaud the effort here to increase participation. There's been a surprising amount of input. So many good ideas have made me think about the alternatives. But in the end, I say leave the division unchanged. My hopes are the stand alone nationals save the revolver division. See you there.

Richard

Edited February 6, 2013 by Richard Koester

[Flexmoney]

Robbie, I'll send you a PM.

Edited February 6, 2013 by Flexmoney

[ChrisC]

My belief to increase revolver shooters at major matches would involve a comprehensive plan. We need to do a scientific survey of the uspsa and icore members to see what it would take to get them to bring their revolvers out to a major uspsa match.

My list doesn’t include adding an 8 shot because I have fun shooting with the revolver guys I shoot with.

#1) lower the match fees for revolvers

I believe a lower match fee for the division would be an easy way to bring a few more revolver shooters to a major. There is a contingency that will not shoot revolver at a major match because of limited competition and the doodie end of the stick when it comes to the prize table. Very little of the entry fees revolver shooters pay are directed back at the revolver division. Personally I’d rather see the excess money go to a charity than in prizes but that’s just me thinking out loud.

#2) lower the number of competitors required for the division to be recognized

New shooters like trophies, plaques, and recognition. If you’re the top C class revo guy out of the two C class guys that forked over the cash to shoot revolver than here’s your trophy.. again screw the prize table

#3) develop a marketing strategy to market revolver to new shooters.

Last year Sam Keen offered a free clinic to revolver shooters to train with him. Sam is a hell of a guy that is very charitable. I would love to train with Matt, Cliff, Mike, Josh and Elliot any chance I could get. I understand time is money and there are very few that make a living off of shooting but when you look at ICORE you see junior revolver shooters…. You don’t see that in USPSA. There has to be some way to make appeal to the next generation of shooters. Is 8 shot the answer? Probably not but it may be a start.

I have been fortunate enough to have Bubber as my mentor with revolver. I have met some really great people in the few short years I have been yielding the wheel gun. I am straying a little this summer because I would like to see how I stack up in some of the other divisions. I am a wheel gunner by heart and plan to continue shooting them until either the division or I am dead… but I am also not going to put forth the resources to travel to major matches and not be in a recognized category.

Edited February 6, 2013 by ChrisC

[No.343]

This is a very interesting discussion. I agree with those who say that solving the puzzle is a great part of the fun that revolver division currently brings. I also agree that we should try the eight shot revolvers in the revolver division. A provisional rule should give us lots of information. Unfortunately, I am not entirely sure that I know what the desired goal is. Is it to increase participation in National Matches with mixed divisions? Is it to increase participation in a separate Nationals Match? Are we trying to increase the number of shooters in monthly matches?

[No.343]

My belief to increase revolver shooters at major matches would involve a comprehensive plan. We need to do a scientific survey of the uspsa and icore members to see what it would take to get them to bring their revolvers out to a major uspsa match.

My list doesn’t include adding an 8 shot because I have fun shooting with the revolver guys I shoot with.

#1) lower the match fees for revolvers

I believe a lower match fee for the division would be an easy way to bring a few more revolver shooters to a major. There is a contingency that will not shoot revolver at a major match because of limited competition and the doodie end of the stick when it comes to the prize table. Very little of the entry fees revolver shooters pay are directed back at the revolver division. Personally I’d rather see the excess money go to a charity than in prizes but that’s just me thinking out loud.

#2) lower the number of competitors required for the division to be recognized

New shooters like trophies, plaques, and recognition. If you’re the top C class revo guy out of the two C class guys that forked over the cash to shoot revolver than here’s your trophy.. again screw the prize table

#3) develop a marketing strategy to market revolver to new shooters.

Last year Sam Keen offered a free clinic to revolver shooters to train with him. Sam is a hell of a guy that is very charitable. I would love to train with Matt, Cliff, Mike, Josh and Elliot any chance I could get. I understand time is money and there are very few that make a living off of shooting but when you look at ICORE you see junior revolver shooters…. You don’t see that in USPSA. There has to be some way to make appeal to the next generation of shooters. Is 8 shot the answer? Probably not but it may be a start.

I have been fortunate enough to have Bubber as my mentor with revolver. I have met some really great people in the few short years I have been yielding the wheel gun. I am straying a little this summer because I would like to see how I stack up in some of the other divisions. I am a wheel gunner by heart and plan to continue shooting them until either the division or I am dead… but I am also not going to put forth the resources to travel to major matches and not be in a recognized category.

Here is a question that might be relevant: Regardless of division, what percentage of active shooters in an Area attend the Area match? Same question for Nationals. I've seen membership numbers approaching 80k. If you don't have a large base of shooters at local matches how can you expect a decent showing at area matches?

[Matt Griffin]

Here's a question I've always wondered, and since we have a good representation of both revo and non-revo shooters I'll ask it:

How big a barrier to entry is it knowing that you won't win a prize and you won't win overall, if Jerry is there? Do the low numbers make A-GM wins meaningless for shooters?

My first two years with revo were built around "Maybe I could?" And my last three years have been "I think I can, I think I can, I think I can . . ." and I've never really noticed my actual finishes or wins or near wins or losses, I'm just Ahab sailing for my white whale.