New shooter attendance enigma

[Sarge]

the OP of this thread, CHA-LEE and I have PM'ed each other quite a bit about this topic.

My first guess would be ego, especially as it applies to cops. Yeah, granted you really don't see many cops show up to either an IDPA and/or USPSA match,....now I am just speculating here, so... a cop or three will show up to some local match, but I guess when they see how badly their behinds got handed to them when the results get posted to the web ...well... I guess in a way it is either intimidating and/or quite the blow to the ego, I mean after all they are "trained" cops and have to "qualify" once maybe twice a year, so they never show up to another match ever again.

I guess maybe, possibly the same kinda logic could apply to those same folks who go through a CCW course(in those free-er states). They might think they are all high speed ninja types after passing the CCW class, but then they make it out to a match and the realization hits them that NO!, they are NOT the next best gunslingers since James Bond or Wyatt Earp. Again, a blow to the ego.

I showed up at a match I don't usually attend and a cop I know was there. He assumed I had not shot before and offered to take me under his wing. I still laugh at it today. He sucked.

[mountaincoulee]

Some topical ramblings:

Background: Am completing my first IPSC season this Fall, with 6 'big' regional matches and about as many club matches under my belt. I'm improving slowly as I go, making fewer mistakes, moving better. Great. The people who introduced me to this sport are becoming friends and I enjoy the mix of personalities as much as the practice sessions and the competitions.

Ego: As far as ego is concerned it was never a concern as I came to each of my shooting sports knowing full well this stuff is not easy. If it were easy I'd do something else. Easy is boring. Imagining myself as a good competitor and training toward proficiency is exciting. Getting into a rut or not getting off a skill plateau, on the other hand, is bad for my ego.

Emulating & hanging with better shooters: when I saw how well our local guys shoot my reaction was "holy smoke - I want to do what they do and I'll invest the time and money to get there". Having a few seasons of SB silhouette comps under my belt has taught me that most are better than me (the AAA level and above sil shooters are phenomenal), and that many will share tips. Same with the guys in my R&G club, many are better field shooters than me. Tell you what though, hanging and competing with any these guys and gals has made me a proficient rifle marksman. I know that eventually I won't suck at IPSC.

Police and ipsc comps: a few weeks ago I was gathering my things after a good hg practice, and one of the local officers came by to do her own practice. We chit-chatted awhile, and she and I ended up practicing together on some of her official targets. She was good, and had such a great attitude that I told her about our local IPSC club, our courses of fire, etc. She could see the value in that, and agreed to accompany me to the next club match. I hope the others are as good to her as they were to me. When the police practice with us on their own time, we should make the effort to forget they're cops, and treat them as we would any other civilian shooter: welcoming, with respect and understanding, unless they are dangerous and complete knobs.

Conclusion: imo, it would be useful for the sport to break through this wall between civilian comp shooters and police shooters. I think that we as civilian shooters need to drop the superior attitude (or 'tude as the kids say) and realize that unfortunately most officers have neither the interest nor do they make the time or spend the money that we do on what is our hobby. We fire as many rounds in a year as most police would if their career lasted 80 years.

Of course, I'm generalizing and mean no disrespect to anyone here.

[JimmyZip]

I must say that my club sucked me in bad!

I had shot IPSC, and IPSC style matches when I was a kid from 11 to 19/20. (that is 1980 to 1989) Things were different back then, but the friendly attitude that really stuck in my head was still what I found when i came snooping to see what had become of the club during my hiatus.

Now they had USPSA, SC, SASS, Stock Gun, Speed Zone, 3-Gun, and Love That Steel. (Love That Steel is an all reactive steel match that was the first thing I started shooting when I came back.) I asked if they had IPSC, and they told me about USPSA.

I placed well in a couple of matches, and bought Brian's book. I went to the USPSA match, and they were too funny, and very welcoming. I helped set up, and tear down, and I was hooked. Now I help at every match, they let me offer stages each month, and I can't stop. This is my favorite thing to do each and every month.

New shooters are encouraged to shoot what they have. They are encouraged to try out the different matches to see what they like. They are good-natured, safe shooters who rib eachother constantly. They are eager to share what they have be it ammo or water. They are respectful, and raise an eyebrow to those that are not. Being there is alot like being here.

Palm Springs Gun Club may be in California, but it is the best club I have been to. Yuma Matchmasters is a close second, and I would put Norco third.

YMMV

[fuzzysights]

To go back to Cha-Lee's question I think a big reason behind the higher new shooter turnout for IPDA is the big rise in concealed carry permits, especially in CO. IPDA is often tossed out as a great way to practice, "the way things will really happen" if you need to use that new gun you just bought. I have never been to an IPDA event so I can not comment on the differences. I got exposed to USPSA by joining the local gun club and seeing the events listed on the calendar. I went to one match to watch and thought it looked like a great excuse for shooting a lot of rounds. I attended the next available safety class and got hooked.

[cnote]

I think a big reason behind the higher new shooter turnout for IPDA is the big rise in concealed carry permits, especially in CO. IPDA is often tossed out as a great way to practice, "the way things will really happen" if you need to use that new gun you just bought.

+1 for just about any beginner defensive pistol course.

It is just a game, not the tactical training some believe it to be. Yet, any trigger time while under the pressure of a timer and competition cant hurt, if taken in perspective.

[waktasz]

I would think it's because a USPSA match requires like 5 mag carries and most people don't have them. If they get that many they have to go out to get them JUST for USPSA.

IDPA shooters might be in the same situation, but going out and getting one double mag carrier is easier than buying 5 singles, especially if people are not sure if they are going to stick around.

That being said, the reason I started in IDPA is because I live just outside of Philly and the only local indoor matches within 100 miles are IDPA.

[Aglifter]

I'm a fairly new shooter -- haven't shot USPSA yet, but I plan to as soon as I find a match that isn't canceled due to weather -- I also want to try some steel matches using my 22.

I shot a few IDPA matches years ago, and then shot a number of them this fall (I know I shot 3 carbine matches, don't remember the exact number of pistol matches.) I mainly shot IDPA because the local match director does an excellent job, and there's a match on both Sat, and Sun, a carbine match once per month, and the occasional 3 gun match.

The matches are limited to ~100 rounds (usually less. 5 stages, I believe IDPA imposes an 18 round limit on each stage -- at least the local club does.) The local USPSA club told me to bring 250 rounds to a match -- at the time, it would have been about $180 in ammo to do one match.

I buy factory ammo, and shoot my carry guns in my carry holsters. I'm there for the socializing, and learning, as much as the shooting, and don't particularly care about competition. There are many people like me, probably the majority, in that group I shoot with.

I've learned quite a bit, and got to try different holsters and types of guns under stress, and decide which ones I like, and am more comfortable with.

I will have to see what the local USPSA's attitude is like, but I don't get along w. people who are type As in their hobbies. At least by reputation, that is more prevalent in USPSA than in IDPA.

[2MoreChains]

The title of this thread really nails it. It's an enigma for sure. I shot an IDPA match today, and the sheer number of new shooters was amazing. In addition to competing in IDPA, I've also been doing what I can to try and convince some of them to give USPSA a try. I used to be one of those guys who would just show up, help set up, then shoot the match. It didn't matter to me if there were 10 people or 50. But ever since I started taking a turn at being MD for one of my club's USPSA matches, I've been racking my brain with ways to draw in new shooters, especially those from some of the other shooting venues.

We've been semi-successful, especially now that the wx is starting to warm up (at least in my area), and we're starting to see a few more people showing up wanting to give USPSA a go. I'm measuring success by the number of new-shooters coming out for their first time, and more importantly -coming back, but admittedly the numbers are still less than what I saw at today's IDPA match.

We have a pretty good email network in this area between the three clubs that offer USPSA, IDPA, and 3-Gun, and that has helped.

I'm also trying to do the "if you build it, they will come" with the stage designs. But making it fun and challenging for the new shooter without boring the A/M class USPSA veteran has been tough.

Probably the best tactic has been to have a welcome committee as some of you have mentioned, and making the new people feel welcome and not scare them away thru intimidation. But we have to get them there first, and THAT'S the enigma.

In thinking about what drew me in, I realized it was the opportunity to shoot in ways I could not do on my own. (OK, it was also the competition, which you don't get plinking away at pop cans on your own in the desert...)

So next weekend at our regular match, we're planning an additional side-match to offer people a chance to shoot their AR and pistol on one of the long stages. MGM hosted a local 3-Gun match not too long ago, and they really drew in the crowd. So we know they are out there! I'm hoping to attract some of those guys by offering another venue to shoot their AR, and maybe by way of that lure, sink the hook and show them how much fun a USPSA pistol match can be.

Will it work? Don't know. I guess we'll see.

[IL-SIG]

Has anyone ever tried free match fees for bringing a newbie?

Edited February 14, 2010 by IL-SIG

[Greg Bell]

Free or $5 is common for new shooters at clubs around here

[Jim Norman]

In the Mid-Atlantic Section we offer new shooters a free match if they Join USPSA at the match.

Our club, Old Bridge, runs two USPSA practice matches each month and a sanctioned match all but December, weather permitting. We also have a fairly active IDPA group and have recently started a .22 rimfire action group, plus three separate steel leagues. New shooters are shepherded through the matches and we all try hard to make them welcome. We have a very high retention rate. One thing that we do is to try and involve the shooters in the match, not just the shooting, but the build, running, and teardown. We invite them out to join us at the diner after the match.

We don't leave them to wander by themselves and hope to fit it, we work to fit them.

back on I think page two or three someone commented in rely to me where I said IDPA might be easier than USPSA. Thier comment was that IDPA is actually harder from a rules point since you have to do specific orders of engagement, shoot from cover, some calls are subhjective rather than objective and that USPSA might actually be simpler. In USPSA don't break the 180 and shoot th,e targets. Advanced USPSA is probably more difficult. You have to figure out the best way to take the stage, IDPA once you learn the specific orders of engagement, you don't have to figure out the stage.

Anyway, I have shot both, I have friends that do. Given choice, I shoot USPSA. If no USPSA is around, i might shoot IDPA. In the end analysis both are games, score is kept on paper and we all go home. You want retention? be a welcoming group, people will come back. Belittle them or let you ego get in the way and you won't see them back.

Jim

[joz00]

I'm very very new to USPSA as I've only shot 2 matches in the fall/winter of 2009, but I'm hooked no doubt about it. My perspective as a brand new newbie to the sport might help answer this question you've posed.

I was introduced to the sport by a friend who really took me under his wing. He took me out to the range and introduced me to the types of targets and had me shoot and learn about the basics before I attended a match. I ended up just watching one match to see what it was all about, which afterwards made me very impatient for the next match to arrive Had it not been for his persistence and time I probably wouldn't have had the "guts" to attend a match in the first place. The idea of competition shooting to someone who has never done it before is very intimidating. Going out to the range ahead of time and learning about the sport really helped me during my first match. I wasn't intimadated by the language or rules, and I had a general idea of what I'd be shooting at (except that damn texas star which screwed me over big time).

I've had the nicest guys in my squad both times. They have looked after me and given me invaluable constructive critcism and advice. I've been offered ammo to shoot, and even guns & equipment to use should I need it. That type of generousity touches the heart and not only takes away the worry about "competition" but adds a feeling of comraderie and family to the event. My friend has told me, and I believe it, that USPSA is the only sport he knows of where someone could come to a match with nothing on them, and his squadmates would find him all the equipment he needed to shoot his first match. I am looking forward to next month not only to shoot but also to spend time with the fellows I've met.

The first 3 shoots are free to new shooters at the local club which absolutely helped get me hooked. Ammo is expensive and removing that added cost in the beginning removes one more excuse I could use for why I couldn't go that Sunday. After 3 matches I think anyone would know whether they were hooked or not. I was hooked after one It has also helped me that I have two good friends who have offered to help me reload with their equipment while I am short on funds but full of excitement. If I didn't have their support, the sport might be cost prohibitive for me. I know that the veterans can't take every young shooter under their wings, but it made the difference for me. I've gained a fun once a month activity, along with some new friends that I've been able to meet up with outside of the matches. I know that when I'm older and able, I will be on doing the same for someone else who is in my position now.

[dmshozer1]

Slight drift. I have personally never attended an IDPA match. (Not much shot around here) But I have seen IDPA shooters come by and shoot at our USPSA match on occasion. Man what a different game! Hiding to reload and all that stuff! I am not making fun of IDPA or the shooters but it is almost comical to watch them shoot USPSA because of the totally different mindset.

If you want to see something really comical,watch a USPSA shooter spend most of there time at a IDPA match

picking dropped mags up and trying to store them. Now, that's funny!!!

[dcarter]

I think a big reason behind the higher new shooter turnout for IPDA is the big rise in concealed carry permits, especially in CO. IPDA is often tossed out as a great way to practice, "the way things will really happen" if you need to use that new gun you just bought.

+1 for just about any beginner defensive pistol course.

It is just a game, not the tactical training some believe it to be. Yet, any trigger time while under the pressure of a timer and competition cant hurt, if taken in perspective.

That is what I keep telling my co-workers. God knows most of them could use all the trigger time they can get.

[2MoreChains]

If you want to see something really comical,watch a USPSA shooter spend most of there time at a IDPA match

picking dropped mags up and trying to store them. Now, that's funny!!!

That sounds like me at my first IDPA match after shooting USPSA for a while....

On another note, I think I may have found one reason why we see more IDPA shooters in my area than USPSA. IDPA matches are held on Saturdays. USPSA on Sundays.

Sunday = Church

At least thats the common answer I get when I'm trying to convince an IDPA shooter to check out USPSA...

[OkieZombies]

the OP of this thread, CHA-LEE and I have PM'ed each other quite a bit about this topic.

My first guess would be ego, especially as it applies to cops. Yeah, granted you really don't see many cops show up to either an IDPA and/or USPSA match,....now I am just speculating here, so... a cop or three will show up to some local match, but I guess when they see how badly their behinds got handed to them when the results get posted to the web ...well... I guess in a way it is either intimidating and/or quite the blow to the ego, I mean after all they are "trained" cops and have to "qualify" once maybe twice a year, so they never show up to another match ever again.

I guess maybe, possibly the same kinda logic could apply to those same folks who go through a CCW course(in those free-er states). They might think they are all high speed ninja types after passing the CCW class, but then they make it out to a match and the realization hits them that NO!, they are NOT the next best gunslingers since James Bond or Wyatt Earp. Again, a blow to the ego.

I personally have witnessed the police/sheriff situation. They come in, all swagger and cool, tell everyone they are an officer and they are gonna hand it to us, then get the pants beat off of them, and never come back. The coolest thing is the look on their face when the first shooter does his/her first run. Usually a dumbfounded, what the hell did I get myself into look.

Before competitive shooting I did competitive grappling and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.

Sometimes black belts from other disciplines would come into the school I trained at to give jiu-jitsu a try and see what all the fuss was about.

They got beat very badly the first training session (not injuriously - jiu-jitsu can be very gentle) - but it can be really humiliating.

The difference between the jiu-jitsu champions of tomorrow and those that quit is one thing - Ego.

I am pretty sure I got tapped out, 2 hours a day, 5 days a week, for months on end before I ever submitted anyone.

It took me 9 months to pull off my first arm-bar.

I haven't trained in a few years but I can still do my submissions out of muscle memory though.

I think USPSA, martial arts, and anything else have something in common....

If it's easy and you can become a master/proficient overnight - then it's probably not that challenging.

No one is born a prodigy. Research shows that even genius's practice more than anyone else.

Jiu-jitsu taught me a lot. When I started USPSA, I didn't expect to win nor did I care. Ultimately, the person you must compete against is yourself. The goal should be to learn from your mistakes, to bolster your strengths, and improve your weaknesses. Oh, and to have fun.

One of my friends tried USPSA once. He was dead last. It was his first time. He hasn't shot in the 6 months since, and he is one does concealed carry.

While USPSA isn't concealed carry defense-tactical type - it's such an important opportunity to develop into a safe, fast, accurate shooter.

With that said.... last match I shot, my reloads were really slow. Now I know what I can improve on (I have to improve on everything, but I find it easier to focus on a few aspects at a time).

Sorry for the length. But really. Let go of the Ego. And just go.

It's like Zen. Just Sit.

[kp110477]

I had the chance to watch Tawn Argeris shoot once about 10 years ago (he was practicing at Ben Avery I believe). I saw him shoot the "A" in the headshot area of a USPSA target in less than 0.5 seconds from the holster... I wanted a race gun and I wanted a race gun bad. Now, 10 years later, I just purchased my first limited pistol (I'm well on my way). IDPA never even showed up on the radar for me.

[sifu128]

I know here in Charlotte and in SC we do get a fair amount of new shooters at the local IDPA matches. A lot of people just get their ccw's and find out that they can actually move while they shoot instead of being indoors looking at static targets. I have noticed that a ton of it is word of mouth (friend of a friend). On average on the summer we have anywhere from 5 - 15 new shooters depending on the locations.

Edited February 19, 2010 by sifu128

[paul0731]

For me it was simple, there were local uspsa matches, there weren't any local idpa matches. I see quite a few new shooters at the two local uspsa matches. There are especially a lot of new shooters that show up at the monthly match at the indoor range.

[DoubleDelta]

"Locally we have 9 – 10 USPSA matches a month at various different clubs across the front range of Colorado. We also have 1 IDPA match per month. Every IDPA match there seems to be a BOAT LOAD (20+) of new shooters in attendance every match. The USPSA matches have a very small amount of new shooters which are usually only 3 – 4 at the most with most of the matches having no new shooters. Interestingly enough, even though the IDPA matches pull in a huge amount of new shooters very few of these new shooters become regular attendees of the match. Most come and shoot that first time and never come back again. Where as the retention rate for the USPSA new shooters seems to be a lot better."

Simple math. Lets say in your area you have 40 people each month decide they want to start a shooting sport. For the sake of argument 20 try IDPA and 20 try USPSA. If the 20 rookie USPSA shooters have 10 matches to choose from, you will average 2 new shooters per club per month. If you have one IDPA event for the new IDPA shooters to choose from, you will have 20 new shooters at that match.

Furthermore if you have 20 new shooters showing up to a match, the chances that someone is going to realy engage them in conversation or "take them under their wing" is slim to none. Now at one of the USPSA matches the chance of 2 new shooters getting to know someone who can give them tips or hints is much higher. That answers the retention enigma.

[Shibby]

Full disclosure, I'm mainly an IDPA shooter that will shoot USPSA on occasion.

I think the above scenario makes since for your area, but not everywhere.

In the area I shoot in there are just as many IDPA matches as USPSA matches so the above logic wouldn't work.

I think IDPA is more beginner friendly and here are a few reasons why, most people that like to shoot have a Glock or some other polymer pistol and a few mags. All they need to start IDPA is a holster and magazine carrier, which many have said can be borrowed at match time. IDPA tells you exactly what to do to shoot the stage, and the stages are shorter, leaving less to remember. As a beginner its much easier to comprehend go to P1 shoot 3 targets got to P2 shoot 5 targets. Than "shoot the 16 targets of this stage as they become visible while remembering where all the targets are and when to reload your gun 3 times" . It's just more intimidating for a new shooter.

But I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, and I think that USPSA match directors can use it as an advantage. If you want to grow match attendance, go to your IDPA match. Shoot the match, don't judge or belittle them for shooting IDPA, become friends with the shooters, then invite them to your match. You'll get new USPSA shooters who have competition experience who will be less likely to do something unsafe and will be less intimidated by the stages.

And I'm only talking of my experiences of shooting in my area, I think it all boils down to the specifics of your area. The quality of the MDs who run the matches, the quality of the stages of each type of match, the shooters skill levels and the shooters choice of equipment.

For example in my area the MD of the local USPSA match is an Open shooter, so every stage at the match is 27-32 rounds. Not that anything's wrong with that, he is an open shooter so he's going to tailor the stages to be the most fun for him. And the stages are great, he is a great MD who puts in a lot of work. But he is lucky if he gets more than 1 production shooter to show up. Which is more than likely where a new shooter will start. So a new shooter will come with their Glock or whatever, watch all the Open and Limited guys tear up a stage, while they stumble through it with their production gun. They leave thinking, I can't compete with these guys using my Glock, I'm going to go where everyone is using production guns.

Again this is just my opinion of what's going on in my area. I'm actually trying to talk some of my IDPA friends to start shooting USPSA with me .

Edited March 6, 2010 by Shibby

[jeffbird]

95% of the people who shoot an IDPA match are baffled when they watch one of us game the hell out of something to win the stage. They're there to learn defensive skills and train with their gun. It's a curiosity to many of them that most of the regulars treat IDPA like a sport, rather than a chance to do some 'training' without the high-dollar price tag of a defensive shooting school. Getting them to stop in the middle of an opening an engage four targets without being anywhere near cover might just induce a seizure in this type of person.

He nailed it right there. Practice under pressure as the goal compared to competition as the goal.

[juan]

I think also a lot comes from our local gun stores.

people buy there hand guns and then ask where they might get some defensive training.

The store clerks who dont shoot at all tell them IDPA is tactical pistol and thats where they will learn to survive.

and USPSA is a game.

I am a USPSA shooter

and this is what I have heard.

[sslav]

I think this thread can be pretty much summed up as - "It is not the game, it is the people in the game." It seems that wherever there are good people to welcome the new shooters into the game, you will get participation and retention of new shooters regardless of which alphabet soup you are shooting.

[NickO]

I am a noob to both IDPA and USPSA. I actually enjoy both very much but clearly see the differences in skills/people/equipment that attend each. Luckily for me I know a local who shoots in anything that he can and has introduced me into both groups of people.

I was dead set on doing IDPA only.... why you ask?? because of Youtube!

Videos of IDPA matches vs USPSA made IDPA seem like a walk in the park and very new guy friendly. I also remember thinking about the equipment seen in the USPSA vids.. I really thought I would be laughed at for coming out with a pistol with a few magazines wearing tshirt and cargo pants.

Here are 2 examples I remember seeing. Watch these as person whose never shot in competition and you can definitely see why a new person would be drawn to an IDPA match.

IDPA

USPSA