New shooter attendance enigma

[Franklin D Wolverton]

I think most are intimidated to show up to a MATCH for their first experience.

One of the things we've done in Milan to increase new shooter participation is to run practices the day before the match, so they can come in and learn the basics before getting thrown into a match with no information. I put them with one of more experience trainer/RO's, and they learn the basic rules and safety rules BEFORE they shoot their first match. Most of my "new" shooters have become "regular" shooters using this system.

It also seems to help getting people in the help set-up (we set-up, then practice)

Frank

[ChristianHE]

I see it like Cha lee reminded us in his initial post and others have said, that there's no answer to which one is better, because they are so different with different purposes and goals.

It seems obvious that because of the economy, unemployment and our govt becoming so in debt, people are talking much more now about when the "SHF" and buying guns and ammo. So, any training with "Defensive" would be more toward the purpose they bought the weapons, not for competition.

I took a defensive course just outside of San Diego after the 1992 "Not Guilty" L.A. riots and it was packed. I took that class because I wanted more info and tactics on staying safe (It did open my eyes about walls in my house and car doors not being good cover!) not for competition.

Other people I talk with, sad to say, are seeing and hearing that people are "loading up" on guns & ammo out of fear of the future, not for competition.

But I do USPSA because it's fun and as I tell people who ask, ususally with fear in their voice because of all the people who've lost it and shot a bunch of people lately, "It's just like basketball, golf, billiards, soccer, hockey etc: trying to get a ball or object into some receptacle- instead it's get the bullet in the A zone or X or hit the steel".

[ima45dv8]

1 – How on earth does a single IDPA match pull in so many new shooters? Is it different advertising? Different shooting demographic (Tactical verses Competition)?

Leozinho replied,

....gun rags and maybe some internet chatter...

As for the larger number of people attending IDPA matches as first-timers, I think this is a large part of it. I started reading/devouring gun rags back in the early-80's, and there was a LOT of coverage of IPSC (and later, USPSA) events and gear, and they made it seem very appealing. As times changed we've seen a definite shift to a very small percentage of articles on IPSC/USPSA and the vast majority focusing on the defensive aspect of firearms. These often include a mention of IDPA as a relevant venue for practice/training/finding like-minded people, etc. Anyone then interested in burning powder at an organized event would likely see that as the correct course to take.

Add to this the similar difference in TV shows produced about shooting handguns and it looks obvious to me that, whether intended or not, the practical/tactical/real world aspect is being dangled as bait for new shooters much more often than the notion of coming out and shooting for 'fun'.

Once they do come out to a match (of either flavor), why a person stays with one or the other or moves between the two seems dependant on many, many factors. Which ever they choose, I'm just glad they're out improving their skills.

=================

*About 10 years ago my father-in-law and I saw one of Jim Scouten's shows about an IDPA Indoor event one Saturday morning and immediately went to the internet for more information on where we could go to participate. And we did this because we both carried regularly and wanted to get much practice and as it related to self-defence scenarios. I found a local range that hosts IDPA events and scheduled a trip to get started. It just so happened they also hold USPSA matches and I showed up on THAT weekend by mistake. Loved it from the start though I did shoot both for several years.

[ahudson]

Alot of new people to IDPA find out about it through there CCW class and are invited out. They are told by there teacher to try real world scenarios out. That is what i have noticed

[chendersby]

Let's try this again.

When people buy a gun many look for some training of some sort. Gun store guys tend to be more Tactical oriented than competition oriented. The same with many CCW instructors. They will send these new people toward IDPA more than toward USPSA.

Most get what experience they think they need and go back to whatever it was they did before getting a gun. Some will get the competition bug and stick around. Those will eventually find USPSA also.

We have to realize many people are not going to stick with either sport. It takes a pretty big time and money commitment to excel in any shooting sport. The key is we need to expose as many as possible to shooting whatever discipline.

[CHA-LEE]

I think that ima45dv8 hit the nail on the head stating that most IDPA participants are more real world shooting/training based and the USPSA participants are more “lets go shoot for fun or competition” based.

I have always been on the fun/competition side of the street in my shooting so I gravitate to the USPSA events. Not saying that there isn’t fun to be had or competition at the IDPA matches, as there is. Its just at a different level than USPSA. Anyone that knows me personally knows that I like to shoot and if there is a match I can attend, I will go shoot it because its fun to shoot. Sure there are events that I prefer to shoot over others, but if I am faced with a choice to either shoot or not shoot on a given weekend, I will choose to shoot over not shooting. I don’t really care what match it is. I try my best to support the local shooting matches as much as I can because I know that if we don’t support these events they will go away.

I don’t care if a new shooter starts with IDPA or USPSA or prefers one over the other. Shooting is shooting and if they are getting out of it what they want and learning in the process it’s a win for us all.

I just wish that the practical shooting sports retained more of its new shooters. Honestly when I see 20 – 30 new shooters attend a single match and find out that only a hand full have stuck with the sport I can’t stop thinking about how we failed in some way on retaining those shooters. I can understand some people giving it a try and then feeling that it isn’t their “thing” and don’t come back. But shouldn’t that be the exception verses the rule?

What are we doing wrong to lose the majority of the new shooters? I know that there are a lot of outside factors which we can’t control, such as the economy or ammo availability. But outside of that what can we do better to retain these new shooters?

I like Franklin’s comment about setting up a training day on how a match runs, basic range commands and what not before the match. I also do this for the people that I personally invite to come and shoot so they don’t feel like complete fish out of water at their first match. But even when I do this for them, I still have a 50% chance of them sticking with it or not. They all say that they had fun and enjoyed the experience but they end up not coming back. So I am at a loss as to why they chose not to attend other match shooting events.

[Bigpops]

In our area, most of the USPSA events are "reservation only" and fill up FAST. I know new shooters are important to the sport but I honestly don't know how some venues could handle a large influx of newbies without turning away others.

Unless I can convince the Mrs to sell all of the horses and we convert our horse farm into seperate SHOOTING BAYS!

Edited August 11, 2009 by Bigpops

[L9X25]

I am not sure if this was covered by someone else but...

If a few folks receive their monthly gun rag and decide that they want to try USPSA, they will seek out the local USPSA type matches and pick the match to attend based on which is closest to their home. With 10 options, you are likely to see 10% of the prospects at each match. If there is only one IDPA match, all IDPA prospects will be attending that match, since it is the only one being held that month. Pretty simple math, with only one option you will see 100% of the prospects.

As the contact person for our USPSA club, I "communicate" with several potential new shooters per month. I always recommend that they come out and view a match, to see if it looks like something that they would like to do, before they make the equipment expenditures to actually shoot a match. Many folks would prefer to start at matches where you can buy an Uncle Mike's holster, bring the 2 magazines that came in the box with the gun and shoot their first match. If told that (2) 8-10 rounds mags will not be enough, the interest begins to dissolve. Once they see the match, and the fun being had, they are far more likely to gear-up to shoot their first match. Sadly, less than half of folks that contact us ever seem to show up at one of our matches. Those that shoot their first match with us are likely to return again and again.

While I am not a frequent IDPA shooter, I think that the equipment requirements are more attactive to new shooters. People like the feeling that they already have enough gear to shoot the match with little more than what came with their gun.

[rr4406pak]

You want shooter retention?

If half the shooters looked like this there'd be no retention problems!:

[Limitless13]

Ok... I'm going to bring up something that may rub some people, but this is purely my experience, and how competition began for me. I started at a local indoor IDPA club. Within two months, I had gone from the bottom of the pile to the top 5 fairly regularly. Further the attitude was MUCH different from what I experienced at a USPSA match. At the USPSA match I attended people were welcome and friendly, but at every IDPA match I went to people were constantly ridiculing and demeaning USPSA and the "gamers." A fellow shooter who had worked his way up in about the same fashion was made fun of for purchasing the Burkett dvd's to help his shooting and had since started beating most of the regulars.

Again, this is only MY experience, but I haven't shot at that club since, nor will I spend my money or time somewhere with people who degrade each other for the betterment of themselves, regardless of shooting sport.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Limitless13

[abn-rgr]

I will tell you my take on why USPSA is more popular. Guys that shoot USPSA want to SHOOT. Im not going to drive an hour to shoot 25 rounds in an IDPA match when I can drive an hour and shoot 125 rounds in a USPSA match. That was the big seller for me. At our USPSA club, we encourage new shooters to "run what ya brung." This takes a lot of the intimidation out of the sport. Most of us that shoot USPSA know you dont need a tricked out race gun to be competitive and have fun. Unfortunately, that seems to be the image our sport has fostered.

[Bongo Boy]

OP had an interesting question. I try to get to the local IDPA shoot each month and have also wondered in amazement at how many new shooters showed up each time. Could be all the traffic on I-70 get's local folks wondering what's going on, I kinda doubt it. I think you'd also have to observe over a year or so, since I've noticed as the weather gets nicer we have a lot more coming to the Clear Creek club.

I've not shot USPSA yet, but have attended two of the matches in Pueblo West. Maybe because I haven't actually shot USPSA, it didn't strike me as any different than IDPA. In fact, I've told folks who've asked that, at the local level, I see no difference. I'm obviously wrong based on the comments above, BUT, I certainly have not gotten the impression there's any big equipment differences--I don't get that at all. A gun, a few mags, eyes and ears--and I suppose a nice sporting jersey if you want to look all USPSA and stuff. Not sure how gear could be factor--no one needs to shoot Open and my understanding is Production is by far the most popular anyway.

If Cha Lee is right and retention in USPSA is in fact much higher (I have no reason to think it isn't), then I'd guess, as folks above have said, USPSA is just more fun and less structured. I'll have to shoot and see. Honestly, based only on the rule books I concluded they weren't much different at all--use of cover, magazine management and holsters seemed to be the biggies to me. I'll just have to find out!

On the topic of stuff such as Open gear, I agree many shooters may not find that appealing--I sure don't. But, I don't think it provides an answer to Cha Lee's question about why USPSA guys come back, and at least here locally, IDPA guys don't.

Having just re-read the post above (USPSA shooters like to SHOOT) and the math exercise explained above (10 matches to choose from vs 1) these two explanations make perfect sense to me. For an 11 hour day (for me) at the last IDPA classifier, that's not much shooting per minute. I've noticed at Clear Creek there a LOT of people bored out of their minds when they're not shooting. I don't feel that way, but I understand it.

I have not seen or heard any ridicule on the part of any shooters, IDPA or USPSA, of the Others. Kind of silly to poke at someone for buying the Burkett DVDs, when what he has to say applies equally well to either game and he specifically points to practical technique differences where they may apply.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Bongo Boy

[Walküre]

If Cha Lee is right and retention in USPSA is in fact much higher (I have no reason to think it isn't), then I'd guess, as folks above have said, USPSA is just more fun and less structured. I'll have to shoot and see. Honestly, based only on the rule books I concluded they weren't much different at all--use of cover, magazine management and holsters seemed to be the biggies to me. I'll just have to find out!

IDPA COFs are much more structured; generally, there is only one way to shoot them. USPSA & IPSC, on the other hand, pose open-ended shooting problems. This is one of the reasons why I myself enjoy USPSA more than IDPA.

At our USPSA club, we encourage new shooters to "run what ya brung." This takes a lot of the intimidation out of the sport. Most of us that shoot USPSA know you dont need a tricked out race gun to be competitive and have fun. Unfortunately, that seems to be the image our sport has fostered.

Same here. We also extend offers to loan extra gear to the newbies (the usual need being additional mag carriers), and I loan out my entire Production rig to close friends and family to play with.

We actually don't have a very large proportion of Open and Limited shooters at our usual bi-monthly matches either - the vast majority are Production.

[Chris iliff]

This is a good thread, and many reasons have been given, after reading all of them I put forth the following: Gun stores are full of tactical types, people buy from gun stores, most people are probably turned on to IDPA when they purchase their firearm. Same with CCW(concealed carry classes).

Most people are probably referred to IDPA. USPSA is different and if it intends to be the umbrella organization in the U.S. for all shooting sports then it should wake up and address this misconception. Several things come to mind, none would probably be popular. One would be a mandatory beginners match once a year for all USPSA clubs. Something requiring only two mags, so like 16 round stages max. Clubs need to advertise this match as much as possible. The local club guru's need to help and give advice, NOT SHOOT. Those guru's need to be properly instructed on what to say and not say, lest they inadvertently scare someone off. The club should have a good handle on who would make good ambassadors. Advertising needs to be done in the local papers, not at other USPSA clubs. Of course all the local gun stores and police departments should be included. You know, buy a gun get free training at so and so USPSA club. And, all LEO's shoot for free. Hey, it wouldn't happen over night, it would be some work, but in the end I think you could create a paradigm shift in the attitude of the first time gun owner/shooter towards USPSA! Of course USPSA should offer some kind of incentive for participating clubs. Who's in?

[Loose Brass]

I run new shooter check-in at my club for USPSA every month and IDPA every other month.

I shoot IDPA and USPSA whenever I can get to a match. Doesn't matter to me which one. However I shoot more USPSA because there is more USPSA to shoot.

I'm sure it may be different depending on what part of the country you live in but my experience has been pretty much the same as the gentleman who started this topic.

My reasoning though as to why there are usually more new shooters at IDPA than USPSA is a simple one. There are more USPSA matches for new shooters to show up at. Since there are fewer matches with IDPA and therefore fewer opportunities more new shooters will tend to show up at the one IDPA match as opposed to the 3 USPSA matches.

IMO

[lugnut]

Interesting topic. I shoot both but started with IDPA. My club offers both and like the OP we see a LOT of new shooters in IDPA not as many new shooters in USPSA. Here's my take on it... with some of what I personally experienced when I was new.

IDPA stages typically have about half the round counts of USPSA- easier to comprehend for a new shooter that has likely never done any

real "practical" shooting.

IDPA is considered more of a sport to help build defensive skills- which there seems to be such a huge influx of lately.

USPSA shooting is pure competition... and when a new guy with his G27 sees a bunch of Limited and Open guys ripping thru a COF... it's kind of like...

"I"m not even in the same league" as these guys.

Not sure if it's a local thing- but it sure does seem that there is more IDPA bashing from USPSA guys than USPSA bashing from IDPA guys. I have thick skin and definitely wanted to get into USPSA so I did but I was surprised at the snobbishness from some people. It's no surprise that IDPA Master is easier to acheive than it is in USPSA by a bunch, but there is no need to look down on these people. I've never understood it.

Now... why doesn't IDPA retain all the new shooters? I asked many people this. Here are some responses.

It was a fun thing to do but my schedule is just so tight I can't fit it in as much as I'd like.

Once they shot a bunch they realized (or thought) they could only get so far with their carry equipment.

Cost of regularly shooting was too expensive.

In summary I think IDPA attracts a wider audience. If competition is what motivates a shooter then they will soon be drawn into USPSA.... and some continue to do both.

[Bongo Boy]

I've heard quite consistently that USPSA is 'more about competition' than IDPA and that it attracts shooters who are more interested in competition. I don't understand why that is. In both IDPA and USPSA one competes within a division, and there are enthusiasts in all divisions of both. While I understand the fascination with top dog with the fastest gun, there is surely a good deal of admiration and respect for the single stack competitors and the limited/limited 10 competitors, and world class champions in those divisions.

I can't imagine it's round count. Does it come down more to the shooter's control and decision-making ability in a cof?

[Franklin D Wolverton]

It may come down to the shooters wanting to think, instead of being told what to do...

[CHA-LEE]

I think that currently the number one deterrent for new shooters is not the cost of equipment but the cost and availability of ammo. People are spending BIG BUCKS on guns and gear. Don’t let the lame excuse of “it costs to much to get competition equipment” define their stance. That can be squashed by all of the off the shelf gun divisions that are currently available in both IDPA and USPSA today. This is what I think is the real road block right now. 99% of the time the new shooters are using off the shelf factory ammo. Availability of factory ammo since October/November of last year has been insanely scarce. I can see a lot of new shooters looking at any match and thinking “Is this match REALLY worth me burning up the ammo stash that has taken me 6 months to accumulate??”. Especially when they attend a single match and see how much effort, and ammo, it is going to be needed to get to the skill level of the average regular match shooter.

That and the investment verses reward factor of attending matches really does not set in until they have attended a few matches. A new shooters first couple of matches are a confusing, frustrating, and overwhelming endeavors. Its not until they settle into the groove of things do they realize the reward of participating.

I want to make it clear that I am not trying to bash my local IDPA or USPSA clubs for not retaining new shooters. I see our local clubs do their best every match to make the events as fun and enjoyable as possible. I see club members lending equipment to new shooters to help them along as well as giving helpful advice when needed. The local shooting community here in Colorado absolutely rocks and I am proud to be a part of this extended family of friends. Its just completely strange to me that a new shooter that experiences this humble and helpful group of practical shooters would more often than not choose to not come back and attend regular matches.

[ima45dv8]

Cha-Lee, I think you're on to something with that off-the-shelf ammo idea (new or reloaded). Even when it's not scarce, it's damned expensive these days.

[dleat]

People who have a good time shooting their first match will likely come back. Those who don`t , won`t. You have covered the equipment and competition differences and problems cause by those very well. What you haven`t covered is the human side of their experiences.

I believe very strongly whether a person has a good experience shooting their first match in either sport depends mostly upon us, the other shooters. We can either chose to devote some of our time and knowledge to helping the new shooters enjoy the match or not. Believe it or not, building a sport is hard work. Failing to work at having these shooters feel good about being there will result in a small return precentage. There are always a few people at a match who like to help others out, use them. Some shooters will simply be too "into the match" to spend time with a newbe and thats ok. There is nearly always someone who can help and do it in such a way as to make the new shooter feel good about having been there. RO`s are almost always helpful but they have a more important function to preform.

It hasn`t been that long since I was that new shooter and I was 65 years old at that time. It was due to a couple of younger shooters that I didn`t feel isolated and alone in this experience. We are now good friends and I am very much enjoying this wonderful sport.

I am not as articulate as some of you but I think you can figure out what I believe in.

[matt2ace]

As the IPSC/USPSA match director for my club (DCPA) I talk with atleast 2-3 potential new shooters every month prior to our matches. I always stress the 'run what you got' view of starting out in USPSA (or IDPA or that matter). I do stress that they should have 4-5 magazines (they usually have 2-3 already), a open-top holster, eye/ear protection, and 150 rounds of ammo. In remind them many times, it's about fun when you start........and competition when you get hooked!

As with many of the posting on this thread, I stress fun and learning first.....then competition. I also send the new shooter(s) a 1-page outline of the basics of IPSC shooting that outlines basic equipment, safety, and range commands. This allows the new shooter to feel better prepared for an IPSC match. On match day, they get a new shooter safety review as well and are squaded with someone (or more) who will help them learn how to shoot a stage while having FUN! So far, we are retaining about 75% of our new shooters.

I have not shot IDPA for 7 years. The rigid (IMHO) structure of IDPA stages did not suit my shooting goals. I preferred the free-style nature of IPSC matches. No criticism of IDPA, I fully support all shooting sports and those who compete.

As for those who trash one sport in favor of another.......if you cannot say something nice, keep it to yourself

[CHA-LEE]

dleat brings up a GREAT point. The Social aspect of the match is a big part of the “First Impression” a new shooter has at their first match. If there are a bunch of new shooters at a match there tends to be a squad full of new shooters with only a couple of experienced guys and the RO. This usually happens mostly at the IDPA matches I have seen due to the shear quantity of new shooters they have at a single match. I think that this is a bad approach because the new shooters “first impression” ends up being the impression of the blind leading the blind. New shooters can’t look up to or ask other new shooters questions and expect real answers. I think its better to have a small group of new shooters put into existing squads that have a majority of experienced shooters. That way the new shooters can be Guided” though the match experience by many different people on the squad and it also allows the experienced squad members to do their thing as well. There is always someone shooting, someone recovering from just shooting (reloading & cleaning mags), and another getting ready to shoot next. So those three people along with the two RO’s are instantly out of the picture from a help or advice standpoint for the new shooters. But the rest of the squad is there to help with advice and to answer whatever questions the new shooters may have. That and its nice for a new shooter to be able to see experienced shooters go through the normal process of running through a stage. From walking through the stage, to shooting it, recovering from shooting and finally helping with taping and brassing. It’s a lot easier for new shooters to roll with the flow when they see how the experienced shooters go about doing things. When you have a squad full of new shooters frustration sets in with the few experienced guys and they start barking out orders for the new shooters “TAPERS!!!”, “BRASSERS!!!” and so on. Since the new shooters are pretty much lost and don’t know what they should be doing, this badgering can build a negative impression of the match.

Overall I think that pretty much all of the experienced shooters are very approachable and willing to help any shooters, new or experienced, with whatever questions or challenges they have. The new shooters just need to be put in a an environment where that situation can be seen the most. Maybe this is one reason why the retention rate is so much higher at USPSA matches? Because there are usually a lot less new shooters and they get put into an existing squad of experienced shooters that are willing to guide the new shooter through the match and build a great first impression.

[SA Friday]

Cost is relative. What most of us go through in a year in ammo is HUGE compared to those who are not involved in USPSA or IDPA matches on a regular basis. Over the years, a couple of us have gone to our home club's membership chapter meetings and done USPSA presentations to try to convince some of the new members to give it a try. I had one guy ask me if someone could pick up his mags and load them and hand them back while he was shooting so he wouldn't have to buy any more of those really expensive $35 P99 mags or any more mag pouches.

[gamingoddess]

As one of the newer shooters, I'll be honest and say I would have never started USPSA-type shooting without the help of IDPA matches. When I took my class for a NM permit, that was the first time I saw an IDPA paper target (that is what my instructor used for us to qualify on). He periodically shot IDPA matches and recommended that we try our hand at competition to hone our skills and to have a little fun too. Back then I had one double mag holder, 3 magazines, a blackhawk holster, and my Sig P220. That's all I wanted to use, nothing more, nothing less.

I never saw USPSA in a negative light when I was shooting strictly IDPA. In fact, I thought it was pretty cool to see the open guns and the colorful limited guns. There wasn't any difference in shooter attitude either. They all wanted to honestly help, they were patient, and they answered any newbie questions I had. IDPA is very simple in terms of equipment, courses of fire, and understanding. Telling someone that they lost 1 second from shooting "-1" twice is much easier than trying to explain hit factors and percentages. Another thing I found intimidating at first was the stage round count. Shooting 30+ rounds in 20-30 seconds? Back then I thought that was nuts. That's how much I shot in 20 minutes at a local static pistol range.

When recruiting members to shoot their first match, most of them didn't want to purchase another 3 or 4 extra magazines and a mag holder. It's not they don't have the money, it's just something that they don't really consider when they get their first gun. So what does IDPA do? It gives everyone a starting point. They shoot IDPA, they have fun, then they buy more equipment as backup. After that, starting in production is smooth sailing.

Unless USPSA clubs start having all standard-type stages limited to 18 rounds or less (which I hope they don't...unless it's a special classifier), then I think we will continue to see the trend that you mentioned.