What makes a good shooter

[Chris iliff]

Of course it is relative to the comparison. But, I stick to my middle of the road "C" shooter. Hands down better than the average LEO, which I was thinking before but didn't want to say. Yes, "B" is usually the hardest and most competitive class (Black Belts if you will), Most "b" shooters are, in my opinion, a little better than just "good". I have heard that some of these so called military contractors over in Iraq and Afghanistan have a "C" USPSA requirement/recommendation before employment. Is this true? If so it just backs up what my opinion is. A middle of the road "C" shooter with about a year of regular competition.

[Catfish]

Most of the LEOs in our region would make B with a little practice and an orientation program. Come to think of it, the best shooter in Wyoming is a cop.

LOL.

[konkapot]

Not at all "hatin'" on C shooters............

I can't speak for other parts of the country; I started in Washington state, were most of the cops that started USPSA had a "C" card as their initial classification. The cops that stick with it (like Ara) do become outstanding shooters.

Mr. Tubb would probably not meet this rough criteria of a "good" shooter; I think we all tied it in to practical pistol because, well, that's what we're all about.

Good discussion

FY42385

[Calmwater]

I am both a C class shooter and a police officer. Sadly, I am a strong shooter compared to a lot of police. I do not consider myself a particularly strong shooter compared to those I see at a small club match. It really is relative. I learned a long time ago in the martial arts, that even if I would never be as good as my instructors training with them would make me better when I needed to be. I feel very fortunate to have met the shooters at the USPSA club I attend. My police agency also has some talented people I have had a chance to train with.

[sslav]

Not at all "hatin'" on C shooters............

I can't speak for other parts of the country; I started in Washington state, were most of the cops that started USPSA had a "C" card as their initial classification. The cops that stick with it (like Ara) do become outstanding shooters.

You are working with a tainted sample here. A cop who is not only going to shoot USPSA but will stick around long enough to actually get classified clearly has more than just a professional interest in shooting. Of LEOs who show up at our matches, very few show up more than once.

As to what makes someone a good shooter, it is an interesting question.

This may be a bit egocentric but here is how I see it - anyone who shoots better than me is a good shooter. It is a shifting scale.

[Nik Habicht]

This may be a bit egocentric but here is how I see it - anyone who shoots better than me is a good shooter. It is a shifting scale.

So by that egocentric bit of logic, you're not and will likely never be a good shooter? :roflol:

[Vulture]

You must also define the arena. Are reloads important to a bulls eye shooter. or movement. If you think about it, 3 gunners must be proficient in three different disciplines just to be competitive so they have to be good shooters. Being respected by others in your discipline of choice is a fair discription i think. My brother can shoot a box of shells at clay pidgins and not miss one, but is not very proficient with a hand gun, and i would consider him a good shooter. If your talking just about uspsa style shooting then your original post covers most of it i think.

[sslav]

This may be a bit egocentric but here is how I see it - anyone who shoots better than me is a good shooter. It is a shifting scale.

So by that egocentric bit of logic, you're not and will likely never be a good shooter? :roflol:

Yes there is a downside. I have to console my self with trying to reduce the overall number of good shooters out there. Right now it is a slow going.

[Jim Norman]

Someone said earlier that we need to define the venue.

Agreed. To a point. A GM in USPSA is probably a pretty darned good shooter, regardless of what he shoots. He may not be a Champion trop or skeet shooter, but he'll likely be better than the average guy and given a bit of practice, likely really good, same for rifle, bullseye or any other discipline. Why? Because he has a solid grounding in the basics.

The same may not be true in the opposite direction as we tend to have a much higher base skill level requirement.

Take bullseye, you need sight alignment and trigger control. You shoot a greatly downloaded pistol, you have zero motion, you use optical enhancement such as eyeglass mounted apertures, you never do a speedy reload.

HighPower Rifle, You shoot from three positions, you wear a coat and pants that equate to resting on a block wall, you have trigger control brteating control but again no motion, you do have to be able to do one speed reload in a string.

Trap or Skeet, moving target acquisition, but no movement on your part. no speed reloads.

All of the above have essentially set shooting positions, we shoot from all sorts of oddball positions, we shoot freestyle, stronghand and weakhand.

What makes a good shooter?

1. Safety

2. knowledge of the systems you are using.

3. sportsmanship

4. ABILITY within the discipline you are shooting.

5. willingness to pass along your knowledge

This is a slightly different list than answering the question: What makes a good all around shooter?

All of the above PLUS ability to perform under extremes of time pressure, weather conditions, movement, reloads, oddball off kilter positions, multiple weapon platforms.

Personally, I am a bit envious of the accuracy achieved by some of the bullseye guys and some of the highpower guys. But I keep in mind that an A is an A whether it just breaks the perf or hits in the center of the A. I do strive for pairs. I'd rather have two hits 1" apart than 6" apart. But either counts the same at the end of the day in our sport. I think that deep down, a lot of people are afraid to come out and do what we do since they think that it is too hard. That ehy won;t be able to do what we do especially at anywhere the speed that our High-C and B class shooters do.

Jim

[Catfish]

Great job, Jim. That's about the best definition I've seen so far!!!

[Sgtsvi]

I think a good shooter is safe and competent with any platform he can pick up and shoot. I am a B class USPSA shooter (soon to be A class), IDPA ESP/Expert, A class Skeet shooter, and I consider myself a proficient rifleman with more to learn in each platform. I grew up shooting and was always one of the better shooters in my department. Once I started shooting IDPA and then USPSA I learned more about safety and gun handling skills than I had learned in a lifetime. I always try to get other officers and anyone who shows the least amount of interest to get involved in competative shooting. When I am at a match I am a decent competitor and can usually hang with the pack as long as I do my part and my equipment doens't let me down. The officers and administration at my department think I am the greatest shooter they ever saw. I think it boils down to the company you are in and can be subjective. Skeet shooters think we a are dangerous and out of control when we shoot. We see shotgunners flagging everyone with muzzles and we cringe at what we percieve as unsafe gun handing. I watched a friend of mine shoot his new compound bow at a target last year and he asked if I wanted to try it out. I humbly told him I would like to but I have never shot a compound bow so if I lose an arrow don't get mad. He showed me how to use the string release and sights and I put 3 arrows in the bullsyeye at 40 yards. He asked if I hit everything I shot at and I thought about the question. It was a trigger and sights and as long as I had the sights ligned up and controlled the trigger the arrow should go where I want. I discovered that you can call the shot with arrows just like bullets.

I think knowing your ability and respecting the ability of others qualifies you as a good shooter.

[AlamoShooter]

I am reminded by something Jim N said about the GM being able to learn most any discipline.

Several years back David Tub's was in the STC match and was going to shoot the Long Range Handgun portion of the handgun relay and Michael Plaxco was going to shoot the close action targets with David end-up with the hardest part .

When asked David Said "And Why Not! I have the best trigger control of anybody" David cleaned the targets inside the time limit.

I am fortunate in that I got a chance to shoot around many of the best shooters in the world. If asked if I am a good shooter, I most always hesitate inside before I answer. I say something like " I am good at some things" I am OK at most

Talk of shooting came up at a party several years ago, an attractive woman asked with slight wink "Are you, Good"

My wife thinks so , my wife was quicker than me and instead of say -He's fast - she said "OH lots of people think you are Very Good" I am luck

[CHA-LEE]

Defining an individuals shooting skill set as Average, Good, or Exceptional is directly proportionate to the skill set of the crowd issuing the judgment. I am a B class shooter myself. I don’t consider myself “Good”. I consider myself an Average shooter with much more work to do before I feel that I could honestly tell someone when asked my skill level and I could respond with “I am Good at it”. Right now I can only respond with “I am an Average shooter”. When I go to a local public range, my shooting speed, accuracy, reloads and target transitions are light years head of most everyone else there. Against that crowd their judgment of my shooting skills would deem me as an Exceptional shooter. When I go to a USPSA match my shooting performance is on par with the average highly competitive shooters but obviously not to the level of a GM. Against that crowd I would assume that they would consider me an “Average” shooter.

I think it also comes down to everyone’s interpretation of what “Good” is. For me, I don’t need a laundry list of skill level classifications. Such as Good, Extra Good, Ultra Good, Super Mega Ultra Good. When I see a GM have a solid fast stage run, that to me is a “Good” performance. When a GM shooter tanks on a stage, that to me is a “Bad” performance. Being a (insert USPSA classification here) level shooter does not automatically guarantee a specific outcome. I have seen C class shooters put in “Good” shooting performances. The same as seeing GM’s put in “Bad” shooting performances. The main segregation here really comes down to consistency. The higher class shooters will be able to produce a higher percentage of solid runs then a lower class shooter. Being able to traverse stages mistake free most of the time shows that the shooter has a solid understanding of shooting fundamentals. In my eyes, anyone that can regularly produce a solid presentation of the shooting fundamentals during a stage is “Good”. I am yet to produce solid consistent shooting performances, thus I rate myself as “Average”.

Two perfect examples of “Good” shooters, at least in my eyes, is a local GM and C shooter. The GM burns down the stages not only in time but in accuracy and fluidity. On the flip side he also produces “Crash and Burn” runs where things may not have clicked for that stage and it turns into a complete train wreck. But more often than not his performances are Exceptional so the Exceptional to Bad performance average nets him a “Good” rating from me. Then you have the C shooter who has hundreds of thousands of rounds through his trusty .45 Colt Single Stack. The C shooter is somewhat slow through the stages but is dead nuts on with his accuracy, mag changes, and movement. He very rarely makes a mistake during a stage, other than going a little too slow if anything. His stage times are lack luster, but almost all of the time his runs are flawless in executing the fundamentals of shooting. His performance in my eyes makes him a “Good” shooter. So here you have two extremes from an overall performance standpoint where I would consider them both “Good” shooters regardless of their classification.

After all of this, it still comes down to personal opinion. What I think is a “Good” shooter could be another persons “Exceptional” or “Average” shooter. I think more importantly is that we are all shooters. That’s what matters in the end right? That we all share the same value in the activity of Shooting? I say, who cares what level of shooter I am, just as long as I get to shoot and have fun with it.

[SA Friday]

Most of the LEOs in our region would make B with a little practice and an orientation program. Come to think of it, the best shooter in Wyoming is a cop.

Ya, but he does most of his shooting in CO

[Dr. Phil]

My 2 cents... Worth nothing, but mine. I have shot with LEO's who qualify once a year, and are not only not "good", but not safe!! To me "good" means hitting what I shoot at. 100yds. with a hunting revo? I can do that (usually). PPC 25 or 50 yds.? I can do that too. Steel, bowling pins, el prez? All fun, and trying to improve every time out. My 14 yr. old will someday (soon?) be faster than me, but I'm more accurate. Can I defend me and mine anytime, anywhere I have to? I believe so. I will never win a National match, but the bad guys don't realize that... One more thought. I have shot beside a LOT of regular guys and gals at matches with everyday gear and everyday skills. They have rough hands form hard work and their range bags have worn out edges. They are super nice, polite, and always willing to talk to a new friend. Are they good? Better believe it! I'd shoot a week with one of them before shooting a match next to some peacock with a racegun who shoots 40 rounds at 30 targets. Yet, some pro level shooters are great to be around too. Nice, polite, willing to chat. But, man, can they shoot! Lots of good shooters around. Some are simply good enough to satisfy themselves... Thanks for listening, and please don't forget ue little people. We're in the crowd, not on the podium...

[Limitless13]

I agree with CHA-LEE to a "T" here. Locally (and some other might jump in here) the BEST shooter I have seen is a gentlemen who I believe just turned 80. He comes to nearly every match. Is he fast? Absolutely not. But does he miss. Very rarely. I would rather be on the other end of platoon full of marines than this man. He is, in my mind, the epitome of what I want to become as a shooter. He uses HIS skills to HIS ability without care to anyone else. And having seen TGO, Max, and Manny all shoot, I'm still more impressed by him every time he comes to the line.

[Ramas]

For me it is very simple. What makes a good shooter-someone who finds new things about shooting!

[ac4wordplay]

... Once I started shooting IDPA and then USPSA I learned more about safety and gun handling skills than I had learned in a lifetime. ...We see shotgunners flagging everyone with muzzles and we cringe at what we percieve as unsafe gun handing. ...

A requirement of being "safe" has been repeated throughout this thread - usually without any definition (except for "...don't scare the snot out of me..." - which I enjoyed!). I've been surprised that experienced, successful USPSA competitors (I'm NOT slamming USPSA shooters - I think they're generally the *most* safety conscious!) can comply with the safety-based parts of the rulebook when competing with pistol, yet they sometimes go brain dead when they handle long guns (e.g.: "flagging" people while uncasing/handling long guns outside of a safety area, and dismissing it with "it's okay - it's not loaded").

For some, "hey, nobody got shot" seems to be sufficiently safe.

Some people scare the snot out of me. Even some "good" shooters.

[SIE107]

How I know that I'm a good shooter is when someone else tells others that I am.

Rich

Praise from others is the highest mark one can achieve!

[Braxton1]

Outside of the safety issue (which is HOPEFULLY a "given"), I often tell my students that what separates "Good" shooters from "Great" shooters is the ability to watch the sights during the entire trigger press all the way to discharge AND MAKE ADJUSTMENTS during that time.

Good shooters can pick up a sight picture and manipulate the trigger with enough finesse to make a shot with reasonable accuracy. They view sight alignment/sight picture and trigger control as two separate steps of the firing process.

The great shooter is constantly refining the sight picture during the press and will hit the target every time and call their shots well. The sights are constantly telling them what their trigger finger is doing. The ability to respond to this feedback at high speed is what separates great action shooters from the mere mortals.

And, of course, that leads to the consistency required to do well in any multi-stage match. I would rather shoot 85% on EVERY stage than 100% on three and 40-50% on three others.

[Brian Payne]

A "Good" shooter is one who can give you much needed advice while still helping you paste targets and reset steel.

[Baer45]

I have to go with: " A good shooter is a safe shooter first and always"

[Coach]

A good shooter is safe always. A good shooter can perform on demand, and under pressure. A good shooter can perform at a high level with diffferent guns and in different disciplines. A good shooter is consistent.

[DeepBlue]

I've enjoyed this thread, and have seen many good points.

As a newbie, I see someone who is accurate as good.

I see someone who is accurate and fast as exceptional.

I agree with the idea that accurate and fast are relative, to more than me.

Someday I hope to be accurate and fast enough to put myself in that group.

Maybe then the definition will have to change.

[Steven Cline]

Talking with new shooters, and teaching them how to shoot, it's come up several times now, and I just don't have a good answer.

You see folks at the range who practice a lot and can make nice little groups with their firearm of choice. But does that make them a good shooter?

You see folks that have safely and responsibly handled firearms their entire lives and know their weapons in and out and have never missed a deer in 30 years of huntin'. But does that make them a good shooter?

You see folks who are in Law Enforcement or the Military who are perfectly capable of passing their department's tests. But does that make them good shooters.

How would you define it?

What are the bare minimums of what should make a good shooter?

I'm thinking something along the lines of:

- safe

- comfortable and confident with the weapon of their choice

- able to draw and accurately engage a target (let's say at 7 yards) in 2.5 seconds or less (I would think 2.5 would be a bare minimum here??)

- able to rapidly and accurately engage said target

- able to engage multiple targets accurately and rapidly

- able to perform (and be familiar with) standard drills like an el prez or bill drill. I'm thinking el prez time should be under what, 10 seconds or so? Bill Drill 3.5 seconds?

- able to shoot and move

- able to reload both stationary and on the move

- able to engage rapidly and accurately from a variety of positions

What do you think? What should a "good" shooter be able to do? Perhaps instead of using the word "good" we should use "capable".

So, what do you think makes a capable/good shooter?

Small groups = accurate shooter

Doesn't break safety rules and makes other comfortable in their gun handling = safe shooter

Cowboy action fast draw = show off

Good shooter = I dunno, I really don't.

I know what great looks like... GM

I know what exceptional looks like... M

I know what far better than average looks like... A

I know what skilled beyond average looks like... B

Does that make, "good'... C (probably)

I suspect that the large percentage of shooters are D, but that's because D includes everyone from never shot before to finally getting a clue.

I don't mean to disparge C. I recently moved from C to B, but the difference between B and D is more vast than B and GM.