Larry White Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 I often wonder how people get accidentally killed by guns. I guess the truth of it is that "certain" people get killed by guns, the ones who think they can't make a mistake. THE MUZZLE MUST NEVER POINT AT ANYTHING YOU AREN'T WILLING TO DESTROY.I'd ban him, if he isn't learning and being an ass about it. H. I dont really worry much about the "certain" people that get killed by guns. Who else they may kill scares the crap out of me. This guy needs to be taken in hand and fixed NOW!! Or he needs to be gone.------Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihatepickles Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 The unrepentant attitude worries me most. Every shooter I've seen DQ'ed looked like their dog died, the idea of him strutting away with self righteous indignation makes me sick. I don't think I would be convinced to give him even one more chance. I agree with Nik that what ever happens should be in writing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgtsvi Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 Some people are just not suited to this sport. I understand being polite and trying to encourage safe behavior with any shooter. If he doesnt get it then ban his ass from shooting with the club, period. I would rather hurt on unsafe nimrod's feelings than call one of my friends wives from an ambulance and tell her to meet me at the hospital for some bad news. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baa Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 (edited) The unrepentant attitude worries me most. Every shooter I've seen DQ'ed looked like their dog died, the idea of him strutting away with self righteous indignation makes me sick.I don't think I would be convinced to give him even one more chance. I agree with Nik that what ever happens should be in writing. You hit the nail on the head. The constant violation of safety rules is bad enough, but the attitude is really troubling. I had the pleasure of running a weekly match at an indoor range. We constantly got new shooters. Some of them took a little time to "get" all the safety rules. But none of them, when corrected, had an attitude like described above. The few we had to DQ for a match were embarassed and contrite. They learned from their mistakes, adjusted their behavior and ended up being safe regulars at the match. I would hate to ban anyone from shooting, but I don't think there is a choice here, given the discribed behavior. Safety can be taught. Character cannot. Edited December 12, 2006 by baa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 Some people are just not suited to this sport. I understand being polite and trying to encourage safe behavior with any shooter. If he doesnt get it then ban his ass from shooting with the club, period. I would rather hurt on unsafe nimrod's feelings than call one of my friends wives from an ambulance and tell her to meet me at the hospital for some bad news. This post pretty much sums up my feelings. And accident in our sport is not a 15 yard penalty. There are serious consequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFD Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 Ban him now. I wouldn't shoot a match where that kind of behavior was allowed. I've never seen anyone with that kind of attitude after being DQed. Should have been banned the 2nd time it happened, as that gave him plenty of chance to repent. The folks who continue to let him shoot matches with this kind of safety history could/should be held liable when he finally shoots himself or someone else. Nasty business for sure. I don't envy you at all. Be prepared to have him tossed off the property when he gets the news. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrettone Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 (edited) Some people are just not suited to this sport. I understand being polite and trying to encourage safe behavior with any shooter. If he doesnt get it then ban his ass from shooting with the club, period. I would rather hurt on unsafe nimrod's feelings than call one of my friends wives from an ambulance and tell her to meet me at the hospital for some bad news. Or worse yet, have to tell her to make funeral arrangements juat because someone didn't want to play by the rules. The lack of remorse is what is most troubling...I felt like crap the one time I got DQ'd for breaking the 180 ( or 90 if you prefer)...pointed the gun at one of my best freinds who was the assistant RO...something to really be remorseful about for sure. We only have one life, and there are no do-overs or calling the bullet back!!! Edited December 12, 2006 by Barrettone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L9X25 Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 Some people are just not suited to this sport. I understand being polite and trying to encourage safe behavior with any shooter. If he doesnt get it then ban his ass from shooting with the club, period. I would rather hurt an unsafe nimrod's feelings than call one of my friends wives from an ambulance and tell her to meet me at the hospital for some bad news. +100 Get rid of this guy before he gets rid of one of us!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgtsvi Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 I would also add that in this day and age of lawsuit happy attorneys and public perception of our sport that an accident like this guy could cause could also shut down a club and its range. Especially if there was commone knowledge that this individual had been DQ'd on serveral occasions for demonstrating unsafe gun handling habits and was allowed to continue participating in club matches. In our world there is few things more depressing than the closing of a shooting range. They are usually closed due to suburbian sprawl and public pressure. From my own observations, once a range has closed it will never be reopened or replaced. I dont care if it is a clays range, small bore rifle range, or full blown run and gun action pistol friendly range that closes. We all loose in the long run when this happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickB Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 Make sure he's banned from other clubs in the Section, as well; you don't want to just make him someone else's problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin J Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 I think it comes down to one thing. You obviously want to steer this guy in the right direction, but are you or someone else willing to spend time with the guy and do some remedial training? I have to agree with everyone on this post, match or practice day is not the time to be learning safe handling. I think most of us either learned this from our parents, the military, or both using dry weapons (or the ubiquitous Red Ryder). In my view match safety rules only legitimize what every shooter should practice all the time and know intuitively. So maybe a little dry weapon handling session could turn this guy around? As far as his attitude goes, he might fare better in a one on one training session. Matches can be pretty intimidating, especially if you don’t know anyone. Add a little ego bruising, nervousness, and stage pressure, you get a guy on the defense. I know I might sound like the resident quack, but not everybody reacts to social situations the same way. But if that fails, there's always "Wall-to-Wall Counseling" Regardless of everything, if he's that unsafe, leadership needs to take the responsibility to protect the troops. Period. So remove the risk and educate the guy and test in the safest way possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExtremeShot Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 If I was one of the guys downrange when he was back in the stall handling his gun, I'd be one EXTREMELY PISSED OFF DUDE!!! ...especially knowing that he previously broke the safety rules. Darren +1 on what was said below. ...and if for whatever reason you did continue to let him shoot, I sure as heck wouldn't allow this guy to even enter the range without a camera videotaping every move. DM The folks who continue to let him shoot matches with this kind of safety history could/should be held liable when he finally shoots himself or someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richardschennberg Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 Fix anything that is club related. Send as many shooters as you can to NROI courses. Put all beginners through the full New Shooter Checkout and mandate a repeat for any 1st year or repeat DQs. Make posted safety areas (good signs read: SAFETY AREA - NO AMMO). Enforce gun handling rules for everyone. Put up DQ warning flags if the direction of the 180 is not obvious. Make a match suspension/club ejection/refer to USPSA BoD policy and enforce it for everyone: you will have a fair but firm grounds for disciplining or ejecting this shooter or anyone else who becomes a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dunn Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 If he's been shooting for a year he should know better and shouldn't find a ban unexpected. He's an accident waiting for a place to happen, ban him. Short of banning he needs some remedial training, and if he balks at the idea at all, ban him. I've treated too many GSW to ever want to shoot with guys like this. My .02. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulW Posted December 12, 2006 Author Share Posted December 12, 2006 I hear ya guys, all good post and just what I am looking for. No doubt some serious things need to happen. Does anyone have an email or phone # for Erik Lund? I'll try and call Sedro tomorrow as well and see what they have. What do other clubs do for safety courses or for new shooters. I'm looking ahead to try and prevent this from happening again. All we do right now is our safety officer goes over all commands, do's and dont's and they are placed with an experinced group of shooters who will generaly help these new shooters before there is a problem. But tahts it. I think we need more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeInNePa Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 Why not just tell him the truth? Tell him that he is a danger to himself and others and unless he corrects his rectal-cranial inversion, he is not welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 (edited) If he can't be run by an R.O. like any other shooter on the range, then he has no business being there. Treating him differently potentially opens the club, M.D., stage designers, and ROs to civil liability in the event of an accident. Our safety rules are well thought out ---- I'd want to keep the option of using their consistent enforcement in my defense..... I would also add that in this day and age of lawsuit happy attorneys and public perception of our sport that an accident like this guy could cause could also shut down a club and its range. Especially if there was commone knowledge that this individual had been DQ'd on serveral occasions for demonstrating unsafe gun handling habits and was allowed to continue participating in club matches. In our world there is few things more depressing than the closing of a shooting range. They are usually closed due to suburbian sprawl and public pressure. From my own observations, once a range has closed it will never be reopened or replaced. I dont care if it is a clays range, small bore rifle range, or full blown run and gun action pistol friendly range that closes. We all loose in the long run when this happens. Besides the obvious in that you or one of your friends can get hurt by "some" idiot.... Edited December 12, 2006 by Merlin Orr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 Does anyone have an email or phone # for Erik Lund? Check your PM's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 Paul, Being pretty short with anyone that's unsafe and less patience for those that can't admit when they are so, I'm still for a bit of re-training/one last chance. I dig the idea of reading him your first post (or some variation of it) verbatum and explain to him that you're not going after him, rather looking out for his best interests and his ability to compete in the sport. Then, it's on him to be an adult and make a decision to be safe or to say to hell with it. If he makes the decision to try, partner him with someone and work with him on where problems lie. Participation is voluntary in our sport and there are consequences to actions that affect his and moreso the safety of others. If he screws up, game over. Have a nice day. Comback when you're ready to be safe and accountable for your actions. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Watson Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 (edited) We once had one like that. He was heard to say "I can shoot the gun, I just can't handle all these rules." Unfortunately, some of the rules he could not handle were safety rules. Fortunately he quit coming around before we got to thinking about how to ban him. Edited December 12, 2006 by Jim Watson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 Safety can be taught. Character cannot. +1000000 He either has the character to be in our sport or he doesn't. There is no room for "my shit don't stink" people in this sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
et45 Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 Ban him before he shoots himself or someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ipscbob Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 Once you think he can no longer be taught to be safe, you OWE it to the others who shoot at this club to ban him for good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulW Posted December 13, 2006 Author Share Posted December 13, 2006 Trust me I have no problem telling this guy how it is. And it may come down to banning him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 Paul, We had/have a guy locally that has had "issues". Off the range, I think he is a pretty nice guy. On the range, he is waaay too busy beating himself up. He is just too tense and too concerned about his performance. He was, at the one range that ran USPSA matches, eventually asked to leave and not come back until he got it together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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