Chronic Dq's

[bulm540]

I was ROing a guy one time and the start was facing uprange, guy turns the wrong way and sweeps me and my squads mates. Dq'd the guy. At first I was mad but after a couple of minutes my knees felt like Jello. I had to sit down for a couple of minutes and collect myself.

Edited December 13, 2006 by bulm540

[SA Friday]

An willing person can be taught to be safe.

An arrogant person can only learn through catastrophic failure.

Ban him. It's not that he's unsafe, but his lack of remorse.

The difference between a stupid crime and an intentionally evil act is true felt remorse by the offender. It's just that simple at the end of the day.

[BR]

My name is Brian Reynolds and I have been DQd.

I say this not to disagree with any of the prior posts, but to add a different perspective. I do not mean any disrespect to the other posts, especially SAFriday who is a good friend and who I hold in very high regard.

I think the rules need to be applied equally to everybody. As I understand the facts, this buttmunch has been DQd twice in USPSA matches and once at an indoor match. He's been DQd a total of three times. A lot of shooters have been DQd three times. I am embarresssed to admit, but in my first year I was DQd twice in one month. Has not happened since, and hopefully never again. Yes, I was very contrite and embarrassed. I finished both matches taping and brassing for my squad, asking myself why I was such a dumbass. But, here it sounds like this guy is being judged -- and potentially punished -- not so much for his dumba$$ gunhandling, but for his assclown attitude.

I don't condone this guy's arrogance, or any safety violations -- period. But three DQs does not mean that he will commit future safety violations. If he has completed the USPSA intro/safety class and gotten his card, I think he should be allowed to shoot just like everyone else. I would always put an experienced RO in his squad, and tell every RO to watch him like a hawk. Any safety violation -- a 180.00...001 degree violation -- DQ him immediately. Ask him if he wants advice about what happened, and let him decide whether or not he does. If he does, he might make it afterall. If not, he will eventually stop showing up.

Let me add a hypothetical to consider. PURELY hypothetical. You have a longtime, experienced shooter in your club, who has competed at all levels of USPSA and is well-respected by club members. For reasons, whether age or health, his physical faculties have deteriorated and his mobility and dexterity have likewise deteriorated. This guy regularly shoots matches and is regularly DQd for safety violations, caused solely by his limited physical abilities. Sometimes his safety violations are scary dangerous, but he always is remorseful and respectful when DQd. Do you ban him too?

Food for thought. Your devil's advocate,

-br

Edited December 13, 2006 by joker22

[Catfish]

We had an almost identical situation with a shooter here. What we did was basically tell him he was suspended for 8 weeks to think about what he had done; if at the end of the 8 weeks he could demonstrate that he was safe enough to be around, he was welcome to continue to participate with a clean slate. If he screwed up, he was gone.

The shooter in question sat out his 8 weeks and then showed up; and was significantly improved in his gun handling and safety issues.

Our sport is not for everyone and the risk you run by having an unsafe and/or unaware shooter on the range who does someting stupid will reflect poorly not just on you and your club, but our sport as a whole.

If you'd like a copy of the letter we sent the shooter here locally from our Board, PM me and I'd be happy to send it to you.

It's a sucky situation to be in for sure but the safety of your club and our sport doesn't have room for someone who isn't getting it.

[Nik Habicht]

Let me add a hypothetical to consider. PURELY hypothetical. You have a longtime, experienced shooter in your club, who has competed at all levels of USPSA and is well-respected by club members. For reasons, whether age or health, his physical faculties have deteriorated and his mobility and dexterity have likewise deteriorated. This guy regularly shoots matches and is regularly DQd for safety violations, caused solely by his limited physical abilities. Sometimes his safety violations are scary dangerous, but he always is remorseful and respectful when DQd. Do you ban him too?

Food for thought. Your devil's advocate,

-br

Yes, eventually you have to ---- because we play with real guns. A great attitude coupled with an inability to safely shoot the sport is just as bad as a bad attitude coupled with an inability to safely shoot the sport. It's not the attitude we're judging in each case, it's the --- demonstrated, over a period of time and a number of matches --- inability to safely complete a match. In each case, if after a period of time, the shooter showed up and requested a new safety check, because they'd been working on their safe gunhandling skills, I'd grant that request. If they passed the safety check, they'd be treated like any other new shooter --- placed with experienced mentors, for both coaching and evaluation.

We expect all new shooters to improve. We don't expect them to be perfect out of the gate, but we expect them to walk before they run, and to listen when we need to talk to them about safety. 99% of new shooters manage to pull this off --- the other 1 % need to be told they can't play the game, until they can demonstrate the basic safe gunhandling skills needed to play this game....

[PaulW]

Very well said Nik.

[bierman]

Just my $.02 worth Paul,

This kinda reminds me of a situation I faced as a new Sgt. at my old PD. We had a situation one night where an old head Lt (who everyone knew used excessive force on a fairly regular basis) choked out a guy who did nothing to deserve it in front of me and 3 of my officers. Later, when the investigation was under way, two of my officers really did not want to write a letter saying what they saw that night. The way I explained it to them was, as police officers, if we are not willing to police our own and throw out those who break the rules, who will start policing us? I think this brother/sisterhood of shooters need to behave in the same way. If we don't police ourselves and throw out the ones who refuse to abide by the rules, someone from the outside (read: anti-gun lawyer) will come along who is willing to do it for us. I don't think any of us really want that.

Just remember, who is more important, the one guy who continually breaks the rules, without remorse, or the multitude of safe shooters who are victimized by his unsafe gun handling? JMHO which is worth exactly what was paid for it .

Edited December 13, 2006 by bierman

[Carmoney]

Paul, you can inform the officers of your club that an attorney has reviewed the situation and recommended that this individual not be allowed to participate in future matches, due to the civil liability exposure his conduct has now created for the club and its officers.

(No charge.)

[GunBomB]

If he has been DQ'd so many times, when there is a true problem, SHTF, A/D, N/D, extra holes in people, then it will have been foreseeable that this thing would've happened with a person like this. The piece of the liability pie is the real choker. Forget about USPSA for a moment and think about your local club. Is he already a member there too? A business has the right to refuse service to anybody for any reason. I took a saefty course, it was just to be able to step to the line at a match. Basic skills, what is/isn't expected of you, and written procedures of the game for beginners. I don't think it's done by USPSA, but on an individual club level basis. Very positive and informative, and it keeps people on the right track. I'm very sorry for the situation your club is in. A single individual can destroy everything that everyone has built up in an instant.

[Carmoney]

Now that I think about it further, I'm going to recommend that the admins delete this entire thread. God forbid somebody ever did get hurt at this particular club, all this publically-posted material would be incredibly fertile ground for some plaintiff's lawyer to cultivate.

[h4444]

Ditto's......

Consistent inability to be safe can't be tolorated. Due to the nature of our stages,,,,,they change match to match....there are so many scenarios/situations, that if someone doesn't have a firm grip of sound safety practices you cannot allow them to continue competing.

The very nature of solving shooting problems will challenge someone with poor skills and result in poor poor decision making. Safety should be engrained......Someone that doesn't get it, doesn't have it engrained in them and you cannot hand hold them through every situation they'll face in a match/stage.

If they are new and so focused on the shooting problem that safety suffers,,,,just wait till they "think" they understand a shooting problem and try to perform beyond their capabilities and use even less of the faculties available to them,,,,,now you've got somebody running on cruise control at 125 mph thinking they are on the autobahn, when they really are on pikes peak,,,,,BAD combination.

H4444

[IronEqualizer]

Guess I'll chime in too. Benos forums represent a vast array of shooters and it seems everyone agrees, if he can't play by the rules he can't play. End of story. This is not a sport where safety can be taken lightly.

[ima45dv8]

Now that I think about it further, I'm going to recommend that the admins delete this entire thread. God forbid somebody ever did get hurt at this particular club, all this publically-posted material would be incredibly fertile ground for some plaintiff's lawyer to cultivate.

I hate it, Mike, but I think you're right.

Best of luck with a bad situation, Paul. I've not posted anything in this thread until now, because it's an ugly situation and I can't think of any good advice to offer without knowing the offending party better. I'm confident that whatever course you decide upon will be tempered with appropriate concern for the shooter, the other attendees, and the club.

[GunBomB]

Roger that carmoney, now you and I are on the same page...

+1 to complete deletion of this thread.

[toowide]

In this sport, SAFETY is the number one priority. This guy doesn't seem to care. He needs to be stopped before he KILLS someone or before someone gets mad enough at him to kick his butt. That is never good for club morale. From what you have said, he has had plenty of warnings. He needs to go and needs to know why. That's my two cents worth.

[Carmoney]

I emailed Flex with my thoughts.

Sorry to sound paranoid, but I don't like thinking about the possibility that this great forum could ever be used against one of us--particularly PaulW, who is simply trying to do the right thing.

[Front Man]

Glad I had the opportunity to read this.

Now do what Mike said and delete this thread.

FM

[GeorgeInNePa]

Yes, and furthermore, we should never again even mention the words gun, match and shooter together in a sentence.

[PaulW]

Thanks for the Advice Carmoney but I don't feel that deleting this thread would benefit BE forum members. I do appreciate the concern however. The only liability I see at this point is in-action. And trust me some sort of "ACTION" will happen with this gentleman. Deleting this thread would prevent someone else from learning the vast information and opions of people whom I hold in high regard, BE forum members.

I wish I could have hidden my identity, the clubs identity, and I have held this gentleman's identity hidden. I just felt like I really neede more opinions and some advice from people who have been in similar situations.

[Flexmoney]

Paul,

I was already thinking along the line that Mike mentioned.

While this may not ever progress to an issue at your club, it could elsewhere.

I think we should let this thread run it's course, then revist the idea of making it disappear.

[schoonie]

Guys,

Pause for a moment and think, the safety rules are very basic and simple. It's not rocket science! Their enforcement needs to be instant, consistant, and firmly delivered. IMHO safety issues get a very short leash, screw up = DQ, DQ x ? = Banned (? = MD (et all) discretion).

Again, put it in perspective, the rules are so very simple and basic that anybody can follow them.

Good luck Paul

[Jim Norman]

You are a shooter, You have been or you will be DQ'ed. Simple fact of life.

Not so simple is what You do about it. Do you stay the rest of the day, help tape, set, RO, score? Or do you storm off in a huff mumbling about too many dumb rules.

Example, 180 break. A shooter is deep in a pit, breaks or from the view point of the RO breaks the 180 by maybe 10 degrees. Unsafe? No, not really. There was no one within 30 degrees of his muzzle. DQ Yes. Discussions as to dumb rules or over zealous enforcement? on occasion. BUT and this is the BUT. It IS a rule, a safety rule and just what would have been the case had the squad been scoring and taping behind the shooter? Now there easily could be someone in that cone. So, DQ would be proper regardless of the actuallity of endangerment. It is a rule, a good one and it needs to be enforced 100% because otherwise it isn't a rule, it is a suggestion and a subjective standard.

Some shooters will stay after this 190 break having swept no one and in in their mind not having been unsafe, but rather having broken a good rule, and understanding the reason for the rule, will paste, set, score and even RO. Others will mumble about the dumb rules and range nazis and leave. Those are the people that we need to educate.

One point here and it is one that is difficult. Do we toss the guy out? That way we are safe, but we have sent an unsafe shooter off to shoot unsupervised without the benefit of our tender teachings. Would you want him showing up next to you at the range? Or do we hold on to him and re-educate him, perhaps instill in him some safety conciousness so that while he may never be our favorite, at least is unlikely to do 360s with his gun?

At our club we attempt to run new shooters through our twice a month indoor practice training match. It starts with about a 1-1/2 hour class, a hot safety check and ends, hopefully with the successful completion of a 4 stage match, shot under direct supervision. Then we either invite him out to the next real match or tell him that maybe he should just watch , but to come out again to the next friday match. We realey have a no return. Most people do want to learn and want to be safe. A lot depends upon the way we present ourselves to the new shooter or and this is the tougher nut to crack, to the guy that has benn shooting all his life, but is new torun and gun type shooting. He is more likely to have the attitude than the new guy. And he is more likely to have ingrained safety issues.

Jim

[JFD]

"Trust me I have no problem telling this guy how it is. And it may come down to banning him"

When? After he shoots himself or someone else?

Not trying to be an ass, but this thread needs to be deleted before statements like that come back to haunt you after your earlier explanation of his behavior after multiple DQs and tons of advice to take action NOW.

I can't imagine the BOD of any gun club hesitating to ban the guy.

Take care of yourself and club. This guy has had his chances.

[BritinUSA]

We used to have a system in UK where they would track the number of DQ's I think if a shooter had three in one year then he/she had to redo the UKPSA safety course. This was a two day course.

I think we need something similar in USPSA, most people won't ever hit that number in a given year, but it backs up the MD and RO's with a process.

[richardschennberg]

If you have a competent lawyer that will give you free or low-cost advice, you might consider re-drafting your waiver, including agreeing to comply with all safety rules at all times.

Back to the problem that started this discussion, anyone with repeat DQs probably should be warned politely that they could be suspended or banned for any future violations, and that unsafe gun handling could subject him to a lawsuit or even criminal prosecution no matter where he is. Also, anyone who displays an attitude that they have no intention of complying with a safety rule should be DQd for Unsportsmanslike Conduct before they sign up. USPSA/IPSC matches have been free from lawsuits and prosecutions because almost everyone complys with the rules and only have rare and inadvertent lapses. We need to keep it that way.