Chronic Dq's

[PaulW]

Ok I'm sure this situation is not new, it is to me and our area. I have never had this problem in the 10 years I've been shooting IPSC.

Here's the situation:

Newer shooter, my guess is he's been shooting for about a year. He is what we call a loose shooter. You just never know what he is going to do next. He was DQ'd at our last local match for dropping his empty gun while reseting a stage, sweeping several shooters while re-holstering. Before that he was asked to leave an indoor range match for going to the back without permission and handling his gun in one of the stalls while guys were downrange setting up the match. Was DQ'd this last weekend for breaking the 180 and sweeping some shooters standing at the corner of the bay (big time 180 violation from what I understand).

Now I know it is a ll of our jobs to try and help to teach this guy and try and show him the correct way. However with this guy it is difficult due to, well lets just say we get the impression that he thinks his shit don't stink, if you know what I mean. One baord member wants to ban him, but that really is not an option. Now we have all been DQ'd (or will be), but most of us show some kind of remorse for doing something dumb. I have yet to see it from this guy. He is dangerous and does not seem to be getting it. When he was Dq'd from our match, I was match director and the R/O came over with him to explain what had happened. This guys tells me that he trips, falls, gun, mags fall off of his belt. Says that he only picked up the gun with two fingers. I stop him right there and start to explain that if he had called an R/O over then, he interupts saying he knows the rules. HUH?

So you MD's what have you done in these kind of situation.

My thoughts are this. He needs to be spoken to by a board member or members. Explain that safety is first and we really need him to be more careful. (basically a verbal warning). Also put him with (preferably our Safety Officer) who will R/O and watch him for X amount of matches (4). Making sure that he does everything safely and help him with his safety problems. (i.e. 180 traps, finger on trigger while moving, etc.). Explain to him that if he gets DQ'd again in the next (4) matches that we'll have to ban him from shooting our matches for (x) amount of matches.

Whatca guys thing?

[Matt Griffin]

I often wonder how people get accidentally killed by guns. I guess the truth of it is that "certain" people get killed by guns, the ones who think they can't make a mistake. THE MUZZLE MUST NEVER POINT AT ANYTHING YOU AREN'T WILLING TO DESTROY.

I'd ban him, if he isn't learning and being an ass about it.

H.

[BSeevers]

Print this post(yours).

Read it to him if he won't read it. Explain that he is on probation and if he does it again, he will be asked to leave. Do this in private with another person in charge.

Explain all the safety rules since you don't know his "upbringing" Do not tolerate unsafe gun handling like this.

Welcome to being a leader.

Edited December 12, 2006 by BSeevers

[Crusher]

Anyone/Club offer the USPSA saftey course in the area?

If so MANDATE he take/retake and successfully complete the course before allowing him to participate again.

he interupts saying he knows the rules

In passing you may want to mention to "DANGEROUS DAN" DENIAL is not a river in Africa because clearly he knows neither the rules or safe firearm handling practices.

[Putty]

I am not a MD but I play one on TV. IMHO not fixable given the personality involved, and lives are too precious to risk with one person "learning" the rules over and over.

We have one guy who is kind of like that, but is slowwwwwwwwwwwwwly learning. I will not shoot with him in a group.

Edited December 12, 2006 by Sandoz

[Flexmoney]

Wahtever you do, it needs to be nipped in the bud. An unsafe shooter will soon drive off your safe shooters (at best).

[38superman]

This is a difficult situation and I understand the desire to be fair to the guy.

However, you also have to be fair to the other members that he routinely puts in harm's way.

I think the officers of the club need to take him aside, point out the concerns.

Explain as cordially as possible that his safety issues must be brought under control he will become inelligible to compete at club functions.

What else can you do?

If there is an accident, how will you justify that you new there was a problem but let it continue?

Tls

P.S. I'm not a MD or even an RO but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express at my last match.

Edited December 12, 2006 by tlshores

[Albert]

Anyone/Club offer the USPSA saftey course in the area?

If so MANDATE he take/retake and successfully complete the course before allowing him to participate again.

he interupts saying he knows the rules

In passing you may want to mention to "DANGEROUS DAN" DENIAL is not a river in Africa because clearly he knows neither the rules or safe firearm handling practices.

+1...

I think that would be a good idea for him to take or retake the safety course, or possibly not ban him but require him to sit out a match or two that is in line with the # of DQs he's had (say if its more than 2 or 3 in the given month, he's a spectator for the next 1 or 2 matches).

[DougCarden]

You have to stop this guy in his tracks....If he can get past his ego and be retrained he might be salvagable. Some can.....most wont......I try and think what would work for me if I was a shooter like this.

Just be firm, polite, and let his actions dictate your course of action. Nothing personal, just the business of having a safe, fun shooting match. He complies with safety rules and some structured safety instruction or he is out.

Sorry to be a hardass but we are using potentially dangerous weapons and he cannot be allowed to be unsafe around other shooters that are playing by the rules. If he is being unsafe at the match you can bet he is unsafe elsewhere and people will associate him with our USPSA shooting, and that is unacceptable.......

Good luck,

DougC

[PaulW]

All good input guys. Thank you. Ok dumb question...does USPSA actually have a safety course? I have never heard of one.

[Bigbadaboom]

At the next match single him out. Get at least 3 seasoned R.O. certified shooters to "Gang up" on him and go over the safety briefing in excruciating detail and then squad him with them and inform him that it is training day. Whoever is R.O.ing him will verbally instruct him to watch his muzzle, 180, finger etc. etc. at least 5 times during each stage while he is shooting. Go over this plan with him and if he doesn't agree to do it then ban his ass.

I'm in if you want my help.

[PaulW]

"Gang up" on him is not an option. Reminding him while shooting about his finger, 180, etc. is not an option. If he does it the he is DQ'd, period. I'd like our safety officer to be the guy to do it. Whoever shoots with him will need to be spot on and not bashful at all.

[Nik Habicht]

Paul,

are you the match director at the club in question, or do you guys dole that out on a rotating basis? If on rotation, then who's consistently in charge? That's who should be dealing with the problem.

In our neck of the woods somebody's the MD for a long time --- years, usually. I've done the job at my club for the last 3 years, with Vlad as my co-match director for the last year. When I needed to suspend a shooter from participating in USPSA matches, at least the decision of who was responsible for making the call was easy.

As to your situation: It sounds like this shooter needs a timeout --- at least if all of these incidents have occurred in a fairly short time period. When he's allowed to return, he'll need to pass a safety check, and following that be squadded with a group of seasoned ROs and strong shooters who's job it will be to mentor him.

Be firm but polite --- and if his response is anything but contrite, reconsider his return. Oh, probably best to put all this in writing too --- and copy the Board at the Club, especially if you have any kind of duty to your fellow club members, the Section Coordinator and the AD....

Good Luck --- you guys are in a tough situation!

[JFlowers]

While in the end, banning him might be the only option, I think you need a plan. Something that spells out to him that here is the situation and here are the options and if you continue down this road here is the outcome.

Maybe you include things like

- he is not welcome to shoot again until he has completed some type of safety course with a local senior RO.

- another DQ will result in banning.

If you have other local clubs, check with the MDs. Are they having a problem with him as well. If so, present a unified front and make him aware that banning means banned from all the clubs, etc.

Then again, things may have progressed past the point that this is possible and all you are left with is "I'm sorry but you are no longer welcome".

[Nik Habicht]

At the next match single him out. Get at least 3 seasoned R.O. certified shooters to "Gang up" on him and go over the safety briefing in excruciating detail and then squad him with them and inform him that it is training day. Whoever is R.O.ing him will verbally instruct him to watch his muzzle, 180, finger etc. etc. at least 5 times during each stage while he is shooting. Go over this plan with him and if he doesn't agree to do it then ban his ass.

I'm in if you want my help.

There's a flaw in this plan: If he can't be run by an R.O. like any other shooter on the range, then he has no business being there. Treating him differently potentially opens the club, M.D., stage designers, and ROs to civil liability in the event of an accident. Our safety rules are well thought out ---- I'd want to keep the option of using their consistent enforcement in my defense.....

[Scooter]

It looks like he's already got 3 strikes against him. Definitely someone needs to have a talk with him before the next match. Someone needs to confront him and make him aware that his safety violations are causing a concern for everyone at the range. If he doesn't make an effort to be safer, he should be banned.

[Bear23]

Some people just don't get it and never will. Ban him before he does something really dangerous, (as if he hasn't already).

Otherwise your next story will not be a good one.

We've got a few like that, some i've had talks with and told them in no uncertain terms that their behavior will change or they are not welcome back. Sweeping people, multiple finger violations, changing guns out while in the bay with shooters in front of you is not a safe environment and will make others less likely to come out.

[Bigbadaboom]

I was trying the "help him out" approach. I don't give a crap about him if he's that dangerous.

Ban him and inform everyone who he is so that no one will shoot with him.

It's worth it if it keeps his endangering ass away from others.

[Crusher]

does USPSA actually have a safety course? I have never heard of one.

Yes as far as I know it still exists fro Sedro, they even have a sylibys (course material, with a course outline, lesson plan with saftey cards fo issuance after completion). Contact Sedro and they should be able to hook you up.

Our club use to offer this class for new shooters but stopped when a regular weekly "action pistol league" was initiated to encourage member participation for new shooters/members.

[shred]

Also explain that no matter what his personal safety rules may be, the match rules are very different, so something he may consider no-big-deal, may get him banished from the range were he to do it during a match.

[Harmon]

DQ him for everything you can to get the point across..Unsportsmanlike conduct seems to be one that you could use...same thing with 180 violations and unsafe gun handling.

he will either have to be safe, or quit.

remind him there are no accidents BE SAFE or GO HOME!

Harmon

[AzShooter]

I was taking a class not too long ago and while most of us were back loading our guns but a few people were down range setting targets one of the new shooters pulled his gun out to show to a friend. Pointed it down range.

The instructor first loudly told him to reholster and then took him to the side and told him in a very strong manner that safety would not be laxed on the range and if he couldn't obey simple safety rules he was not allowed to finish or to compete in the shoot later that day.

Because he was very firm in his orders the shooter has become very safe and reliable.

Sometimes you have to single someone out away from the others, tell them very firmly what is and is not accepted and then if they break the rules again not allow them to play with others

[Flexmoney]

does USPSA actually have a safety course? I have never heard of one.

Yes as far as I know it still exists fro Sedro, they even have a sylibys (course material, with a course outline, lesson plan with saftey cards fo issuance after completion). Contact Sedro and they should be able to hook you up.

Our club use to offer this class for new shooters but stopped when a regular weekly "action pistol league" was initiated to encourage member participation for new shooters/members.

I think I asked about that, or something similar, a year or so back. It wasn't available, and might have been undergoing a re-vamp. I haven't heard any different (then again, I hear more on the forum than I do as a Section Coordinator).

[Barrettone]

Paul:

USPSA gives each club a DVD with the new shooter class put on down in Georgia by Eric Lund. Also, they issue a "New Shooter Safety Check Card" that spells out what a new shooter is and is not allowed to do...ie, allowed to shoot with a coach-thru, etc...Also, you can email Eric Lund for his colurse material. He is very willing to get it out there, and it is an excellent program he has created to indoctrinate new, safe, shooters. Also, you can call Sedro. They have a wealth of materials...all you need do is ask. There is also your Section Coordinator and Area Director to fall back on. Don't be afraid to get their counsel on this situation. That is what they are there for. Heck, they might even address the situation for you, and that way, it would be coming from an independent party, so he might take it more to heart. Remember, your first duty is to the safety of the other members...all else is secondary. Hurting someones feeling comes SECONDARY to running a safe program. Hope all this helps.

[John Baier]

Paul:

USPSA gives each club a DVD with the new shooter class put on down in Georgia by Eric Lund. Also, they issue a "New Shooter Safety Check Card" that spells out what a new shooter is and is not allowed to do...ie, allowed to shoot with a coach-thru, etc...Also, you can email Eric Lund for his colurse material. He is very willing to get it out there, and it is an excellent program he has created to indoctrinate new, safe, shooters. Also, you can call Sedro. They have a wealth of materials...all you need do is ask. There is also your Section Coordinator and Area Director to fall back on. Don't be afraid to get their counsel on this situation. That is what they are there for. Heck, they might even address the situation for you, and that way, it would be coming from an independent party, so he might take it more to heart. Remember, your first duty is to the safety of the other members...all else is secondary. Hurting someones feeling comes SECONDARY to running a safe program. Hope all this helps.

+1, If a shooter is unsafe on numerous occasions, he must not be allowed to participate period!