Questions for past and present hammer fired Production /CO shooters

[GrumpyOne]

Recently read a discussion about this.

 

For those of you who shoot or shot Production / CO with hammer fired guns...

 

Do or did you notice the first DA shot from the holster?

 

If you did notice it, how did you go about getting past that first DA shot, and getting rounds on target for the second SA shot?

 

What training did you do to minimize the difference in trigger pull between the first and second shot?

 

I don't think I've ever noticed the difference, so I can't objectively comment. I just never seemed to pay attention to that first shot, just put the sites on the target and squeezed.

[GrumpyOne]

Come on guys, I know that there are more than 5 of you out there!

[Racinready300ex]

When shooting DA/SA I always noticed the DA, I'm not sure how you wouldn't. I spent a lot of time in revolver so DA didn't scare me and I never really had a problem with it. I never burned the first shot because of DA and never changed my plan from fear of taking a hard 1st shot. 

 

I do remember my first match with a DA/SA gun, 1st stage, 1st target was like 35 yards away. I remember firing that first shot, then the trigger being setback in SA I thought "s#!t something is wrong....no wait it's just SA now"... and continued. It likely wasn't noticeable watching me but that split I'm sure was slower than needed even given the distance. Never happened again.

 

I dryfired a lot back then, I think that works this stuff out really fast. Pull through the DA shot, then don't fully release the trigger so it doesn't pick up the DA notch. This helps a lot to simulate the transition from DA to SA. 

[RJH]

^^^ what he said 

 

 

Same here, while I knew the da shot was there I just didn't really pay much attention to it. I kind of always did the "tightening the trigger finger as I was extending out on the target for the first shot" if it was a distance and rolled through the trigger. Then just shot single action the rest of the way like that was what I had done from the get-go.

 

Also I never had any fancy dasa guns, just a Beretta 92 and the only trigger mods was putting in a factory da only main spring. 

 

 

[DenC]

Initially I looked down and was also scared of DA/SA guns being so used to 1911s. However when I  got into IPSC about 2 years back got myself a Tanfo Stock 1. 

Found that the DA first shot wasn't that bad at all. I just kinda remind myself, just pull it straight through and don't hesitate.

My second, SA shot isn't that bad too and I dryfire just like Racinready300x. DA first shot, partially releasing the trigger to mimic the SA follow-up shots. First saw how to dry fire DA/SA in a Ben Stoeger video.

One of the other things I do is a drill wherein first shot DA on first target and second shot (SA) on a different target. Kinda teaches better trigger control for both DA/SA. I think the drill is called "Double action familiarity" drill. Not sure on the name though. Also saw that on a Ben Stoeger video, I think.

Yes I do notice the first DA pull however for some reason I am not much bothered by the transition to SA.

[Youngeyes]

32 minutes ago, DenC said:

One of the other things I do is a drill wherein first shot DA on first target and second shot (SA) on a different target

Thanks. Thats a great idea.

[bravobravo]

4 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I dryfired a lot back then, I think that works this stuff out really fast. Pull through the DA shot, then don't fully release the trigger so it doesn't pick up the DA notch. This helps a lot to simulate the transition from DA to SA. 

100% agree! 1st shot DA then don't release the trigger far enough to reset it.

I would say the 3 most important things to help are:

1) Dryfire

2) Dryfire some more

3) Dryfire even more

Do this everyday for 2 or 3 weeks, being very critical about calling your shots, put most of your attention on what the trigger feels like, learn how much take up there is and where it breaks. Do some live fire to confirm what you think you are seeing and feeling in dry fire. If you already have a good to very good draw to 1st shot the transition should not be any big deal.

 

[MHicks]

It's going to be very rare that your first target on a stage is a single 35 yard target. The first da pull shouldn't be a big deal but you're usually  going to have a several target array and can shoot the easier target first if you want to. 

[PA_USPSA]

I practice DA when I dry fire.  During a match I'm only thinking about targets and sight picture.  My trigger finger just kind of does its thing on its own.

[rpm8300]

With my CZ, if the first shot is 15 yards or in, it is a non-issue and I just pull through. Even with an 11lbs main spring, the entire pull is smooth and around 5 lbs.  If the target is past 15, I load the trigger to about 8/10th, and then complete the press.  After a good bit of practice and shooting DA/SA off and on since 2013, this technique pretty much makes it a single action pull and happens pretty quickly.  

[IHAVEGAS]

If the course of fire requires you to start hammer down and weak hand only I very much notice it, if the first shot is particularly challenging I'm aware of it and try to place extra focus on a tight grip and smooth pull. Regardless of the gun a tough first shot requires a little extra focus on getting the gun stable after the draw, for me anyway.  Both situations are somewhat rare. 

 

The transition from 1st shot to subsequent shots I don't notice at all, I think it is like the transition from first shot with finger starting outside the trigger guard to second shot with all guns, it just happens. 

[Zachjet]

I voted no,  but I’d like to say I do notice it, but not in a negative way. I tend to start pulling the DA as soon as my guns pointing down range, and by the time my sights are lined up, I’m at at least half-cocked…

For what it’s worth I’ve only Da/sa for 98% of my “competitive” shooting career 

[Dr Mitch]

I notice DA trigger pull but it doesn’t matter because of all the dryfire.  When I shot Prod very heavily I did all my dryfire trigger pulls full double action.

[konkapot]

Did well with a Beretta in Production. Tons of dryfire, but did, sometimes, change my "first target" selection based on the difficulty of the shot. 

 

Someone (Angus?) pointed out that in a 150 rd club match only 5-6 of your shots would be DA. 

[MHicks]

On 4/18/2024 at 5:20 AM, IHAVEGAS said:

If the course of fire requires you to start hammer down and weak hand only I very much notice it, if the first shot is particularly challenging I'm aware of it and try to place extra focus on a tight grip and smooth pull. Regardless of the gun a tough first shot requires a little extra focus on getting the gun stable after the draw, for me anyway.  Both situations are somewhat rare. 

 

The transition from 1st shot to subsequent shots I don't notice at all, I think it is like the transition from first shot with finger starting outside the trigger guard to second shot with all guns, it just happens. 

 

I'm curious. How many times have you had to start from the draw, hammer down, weakhand only start in the last few years? Even classifiers that have weak hand usually  start freestyle then transition to weak hand after a mandatory reload. There may be a classifier that starts weak hand, can't remember though.

[shred]

US IPSC Nats last weekend had a weak-hand-only gun-in-box start.  Couldn't even touch the pistol strong hand to pick it up.

 

That sort of thing is way more common in IPSC than USPSA.

[IHAVEGAS]

22 minutes ago, MHicks said:

 

I'm curious. How many times have you had to start from the draw, hammer down, weakhand only start in the last few years? Even classifiers that have weak hand usually  start freestyle then transition to weak hand after a mandatory reload. There may be a classifier that starts weak hand, can't remember though.

Not often. The original IDPA classifier had a weak hand only start from low ready, have had to do it at a few USPSA matches but it is rare. 

[-JCN-]

22 hours ago, MHicks said:

 

I'm curious. How many times have you had to start from the draw, hammer down, weakhand only start in the last few years? Even classifiers that have weak hand usually  start freestyle then transition to weak hand after a mandatory reload. There may be a classifier that starts weak hand, can't remember though.

I think riverdale standards has a draw to weak hand transfer string?

 

I agree with the others that said, “notice DA, doesn’t bother.”

 

It does affect the wobble slightly which you’d expect though. The heavier and longer the trigger, the more it affects my wobble (again which is what you’d expect). 

[RJH]

36 minutes ago, -JCN- said:

I think riverdale standards has a draw to weak hand transfer string?

 

I agree with the others that said, “notice DA, doesn’t bother.”

 

It does affect the wobble slightly which you’d expect though. The heavier and longer the trigger, the more it affects my wobble (again which is what you’d expect). 

 

 

If it really bothered a person they could always cock the hammer or rack the slide during the transfer. Nothing saying you can't do that that I know of, at least in USPSA 

[MHicks]

Yes. Just trying to point out the rarity of first shot on any stage being weak hand only required. 

[ColoradoNick]

I don't notice it shooting a shadow 2. I spent a lot of time on the DA shot when I first started shooting and now it doesn't matter. 3 yards or 25 the trigger pull is the same. If it's a bad shot I'm calling it that way and making it up. 

[CGoodwin]

I shoot Sphinx and Phoenix DA/SA pistols. Previously CZ and Sig P226 before that. I have always been more comfortable with DA/SA and the DA first pull is not much of an issue after so may years.

 

Good tips on dry fire here. The MantisX is a nice tool as well. Classifiers are typically the only place where weak hand only occurs and good attention to grip works well.

 

Going to SA is very easy after training. Controlling the reset helps.

[Chills1994]

I put a “D” spring in one of my 92 Brig Inox’s.

 

The other 92 Brig Inox got a main spring from a 1911.

 

I have a couple of 96 Brig Inox’s that I never changed the main spring on.  Now that, yeah!  I can definitely tell.

 

I never dry fired.

 

I just shot a lot of matches including an every 1st and 3rd Saturday “steel challenge” match.

 

There were some SC stages where I picked the closest target to shoot at first….just to get the DA first shot out of the way…kinda accurately.   

[MikeBurgess]

Yes I notice the first pull, but that doesn't make it bad it just makes it different, basically if its a hoser first target then I hose it, if its a 25 yard partial I make sure I pull it straight back for each shot, basically they are the same mental focus only the trigger starts in a different place. 

 

[Yagi]

DA - I don't notice it per se but i am "aware" of it. 

SA - 2nd Shot, it doesn't really affect anything.

 

All i am focusing on is not to disturb my sights. It doesn't matter if i am slapping, jerking, pressing the trigger. 

Close or far target i do the same thing. I just focus on lining up the acceptable sight picture and move on to the next target until i am done.