Thoughts after first matches with Prod 15?

[Joe4d]

I dont think 15 was a smart move unless it was done  for no other reason than to align with IPSC..  As that is all it will accomplish... you will be stuck in 8-8-8-8 land, and still need a fist full of magazines, and still not loading to capacity.
A box rule or mag length rule woulda made far more sense.  Way it is, its just another handicap measure so people wont want to shoot it, so someone can point and say people only want optics and $4000 guns.
 

[Racinready300ex]

Readings posts about 8888 stages I'm happy to live somewhere that doesn't do that at least. 

 

But we see our own problems. 

[zzt]

Back when going to 15 vs. full mag was being debated, I said it was a worthless change.  There were many, very vocal supporters of the change.  I still say it will not add any Prod shooters to the mix.  Prod shooters started to defect when CO became a thing.  Then, when CO changed to allow 140mm mags and heavier guns, Prod died.  It even diminished Open numbers.  Only a little at first.  They were Open minor shooters who could not see sights.  Now some Open major shooters are defecting.  Some Open major shooters are going to LO.

 

So, by the end of this year USPSA will essentially be an optical sighted 9mm game.

[motosapiens]

6 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

Readings posts about 8888 stages I'm happy to live somewhere that doesn't do that at least. 

 

But we see our own problems. 

its extremely rare for me to see a stage that forces 8-8-8-8. it does occasionally happen but usually with an unloaded start when im shooting ss (major, obviously…)

[motosapiens]

3 hours ago, zzt said:

Back when going to 15 vs. full mag was being debated, I said it was a worthless change.  There were many, very vocal supporters of the change.  I still say it will not add any Prod shooters to the mix.  Prod shooters started to defect when CO became a thing.  Then, when CO changed to allow 140mm mags and heavier guns, Prod died.  It even diminished Open numbers.  Only a little at first.  They were Open minor shooters who could not see sights.  Now some Open major shooters are defecting.  Some Open major shooters are going to LO.

 

So, by the end of this year USPSA will essentially be an optical sighted 9mm game.

i am seeing more interest in open locally as Time goes by. people get their first cheap taste of a dot with co, then after a year want major scoring.

[MoNsTeR]

Snowed out this past weekend, or I would have tried it. Maybe the weather will cooperate this coming weekend.

 

Not in favor of the move to 15 but it doesn't give me heartburn either. We'll see!

[Braxton1]

It's an awkward number, because of the aforementioned 8-8-8-8 stuff.  It feels like Stock Service Pistol did when it went to 15 in IDPA.  My overall placement has gone up a little compared to Carry Optics/Lim Optics; that's about the only change that I've noticed.

[Racinready300ex]

13 minutes ago, Braxton1 said:

It's an awkward number, because of the aforementioned 8-8-8-8 stuff.  It feels like Stock Service Pistol did when it went to 15 in IDPA.  My overall placement has gone up a little compared to Carry Optics/Lim Optics; that's about the only change that I've noticed.

 

Yeah, in IDPA 15 almost seems worse. Typically in IDPA I see more 6-6-6 stages. Really common. So you end up either round dumping more or tac-loading. But, I've only shot one match in SSP since that change. It just seems like stages are either built with 10 round guns in mind, or 6 shot revolvers. Nothing else. 

[lroy]

The only way prod sees any interest, is if it becomes carry irons. 
 

That or leave it alone and just stack it with revolver and all the other divisions no one shoots

[barry]

Production was screwed up from beginning. Should have been irons,no ports,fits box w/mag, capacity full or what's legal in state where match is.

 

I would also say major/minor to keep sport loyal to its beginning but I know that ship sailed. 

[Zincwarrior]

45 minutes ago, barry said:

Production was screwed up from beginning. Should have been irons,no ports,fits box w/mag, capacity full or what's legal in state where match is.

 

I would also say major/minor to keep sport loyal to its beginning but I know that ship sailed. 

IIRC but the division was set up to compete with IDPA's SSP yes? 

 

Just my opinion, but I doubt capacity matters for issues of Production popularity.  Just as with revolvers, technology has advanced.  Carry optics are rapidly becoming the standard with police and as such will become the industry standard presently. 

 

 

[shred]

USPSA Production was set up during the nationwide 1994 AWB ban years, so 10 rounds was it. 

 

At least it avoided the IPSC mess with the "factory capacity" race and eventual return to 15 once that proved unworkable.

 

[shred]

12 hours ago, motosapiens said:

i am seeing more interest in open locally as Time goes by. people get their first cheap taste of a dot with co, then after a year want major scoring.

This.  People that "wanna go faaast" soon learn that dot-minor means they have to be riding the brakes most of the time to get a good score if the stages are anything less than close hosefests.

 

What's holding back the growth of Open is the small number of factory open guns for sale and the need to reload ammo.

 

 

 

[858]

I have been pretty critical of the production rule changes over the years. The arms race more or less spoiled production. However, the advancement of small slide mounted optics turned the market away from iron sights. Regardless of the production division arms race, slide mounted optics are the present/future and shooters have made their decision. 15 round magazine capacity doesn't change the economics and market trends.

 

At one time I thought open was dying. The emphasis on optics seems to be breathing life back into open. There isn't all that much difference in cost between LO and Open. There's almost no difference in ammo cost when reloading either. 

 

 

 

 

[motosapiens]

16 minutes ago, 858 said:

There isn't all that much difference in cost between LO and Open. There's almost no difference in ammo cost when reloading either. 

 

 

im loading for both LO and open. 5-6 cents per round diff, which is not backbreaking, but alot more than zero. with open you really need jhps, and open guns use 2-3 x as much powder. this also ignores the need to be much pickier with open brass to ensure consistent extraction and avoud bouncing brass off the optic mount.

 

also, while you *can* spend near open $ on an LO gun, most people do not, at least so far.

[858]

2 hours ago, motosapiens said:

im loading for both LO and open. 5-6 cents per round diff, which is not backbreaking, but alot more than zero. with open you really need jhps, and open guns use 2-3 x as much powder. this also ignores the need to be much pickier with open brass to ensure consistent extraction and avoud bouncing brass off the optic mount.

 

also, while you *can* spend near open $ on an LO gun, most people do not, at least so far.

 

I'm loading copper plated bullets and using any brass that isn't split. I went from obsessing over JHP and head stamps to not caring at all. I've had no change in performance or reliability. 

[Braxton1]

6 hours ago, Zincwarrior said:

IIRC but the division was set up to compete with IDPA's SSP yes? 

 

 

True, but take a look at IDPA numbers for SSP.  At my local match (predominately older guys), Carry Optics is the runaway favorite.  20 folks will have 18 CO, one or two CDP, one or two SSP.

 

 

[Racinready300ex]

3 minutes ago, Braxton1 said:

 

True, but take a look at IDPA numbers for SSP.  At my local match (predominately older guys), Carry Optics is the runaway favorite.  20 folks will have 18 CO, one or two CDP, one or two SSP.

 

 

 

Around here CO is also the clear winner. But, you have lots of iron sight 9mm divisions in IDPA. CCP and ESP are basically the same division now and SSP just gets 5 more rounds. We might have 25 in CO and 15 to 18 shooting irons just split between those divisions. 

 

SSP numbers did improve a little. I guess people see 5 more rounds as a bigger deal then a magwell

[BadShot]

We had an indoor match Wednesday.  The production guns jump from 1 to 2.  The 15 round didn't a big impact, seemed like the biggest advantage was that more options where to reload.

[zzt]

On 2/6/2024 at 10:42 AM, shred said:

What's holding back the growth of Open is the small number of factory open guns for sale and the need to reload ammo.

 

 

Needing to reload ammo is the biggest impediment.  I've tried most of the commercially available 9mm major ammo and they all sucked.  I spent so much time loading 9 major last year that I shot all factory for minor.

[IHAVEGAS]

Signs of the times I guess. Warming here and just signed up for my first 2024 match. 9 shooters on my squad so far, 8 divisions  . 

 

[motosapiens]

On 2/9/2024 at 5:00 PM, zzt said:

 

Needing to reload ammo is the biggest impediment.  I've tried most of the commercially available 9mm major ammo and they all sucked.  I spent so much time loading 9 major last year that I shot all factory for minor.

u must be pretty busy.

 

it takes me 30-40 mins to load mrs moto’s 38sc practice and match rounds for each week we have a match. in contrast, we spend 2-3 hrs at practice and 6-7 at the match, and 30 mins cleaning guns the night before. i’m not sure i would ever notice that 30-40 mins if i bought factory ammo (especially since i usually have a sports event on the boobtube), but i would notice the extra $50-80 i spent each week.

[zzt]

27 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

u must be pretty busy.

 

Unfortunately.  My goal this Winter was to load 200 major rounds per day.  Last week only 300 got loaded.  Zero so far this week. 

[Haywizzle]

My GF shot Production with her SIG p320 legion down in Florida this weekend. She had fun only doing a max of 2 mag changes on the 32 round large stages and only once in the medium courses, which allowed more options for stage plans. She also enjoyed not having to reload on the new 12 shot classifier 23-01. 

 

She was against the 15 round change and had to buy 17 round mags since she only had 10 rounders that fit the box. Bass Pro had them for $50 a pop. We might drill out the dimples on a few of the 10 rounders.

 

The match had 33 shooters with only one other shooter in production. One more than we expected.

[RJH]

It's still early, but two of the local matches I'm signed up for have zero production shooters signed up. But, to be fair production never had a strong showing in this area