Thoughts after first matches with Prod 15?

[RJH]

33 minutes ago, PA_USPSA said:

In New Jersey with the 10 round magazine limit a lot of guys that were shooting Production actually switched to Limited 10.  I'll be switching to Limited 10 starting in April.  Ironically, in New Jersey, changing the maximum rounds per magazine for Production actually decreased participation.

 

They should shoot single stack 

[shred]

11 hours ago, PA_USPSA said:

In New Jersey with the 10 round magazine limit a lot of guys that were shooting Production actually switched to Limited 10.  I'll be switching to Limited 10 starting in April.  Ironically, in New Jersey, changing the maximum rounds per magazine for Production actually decreased participation.

Why?  Doesn't rule 3.3.1 apply there?

 

[Racinready300ex]

Everyone I know from NJ shoot hi-cap divisions and just load to 10 when shooting at home. 

[Sniperboy]

I get the feeling that ban states still silently shoot to normal capacity. 

 

The real question is if NJ participants switched to Limited 10 out of necessity in order to comply with the law (or they didn't want to compete against pre-ban 15 rounders).  OR if the switch to L10 was a silent protest.  Interesting data point either way.

[mreed911]

8 minutes ago, Sniperboy said:

The real question is if NJ participants switched to Limited 10 out of necessity in order to comply with the law (or they didn't want to compete against pre-ban 15 rounders).

What necessity?  If everyone is shooting 10 round mags and the MD is using classifiers where 10/15 rounds won't make a difference, what's different?

[Sniperboy]

I am just wondering if NJ matches "allow" 15 rounders for production despite the law. 

 

If NJ allows 15 rounders for production then the question is: did people quit Production because they don't want to buy 15 rounders (and possibly skirt the law) or if they are protesting against the new USPSA rules, despite having 15 rounders on hand.

 

Or it could simply be that everyone in NJ shoots 10 rounds and production guys quit because they don't want to shoot 15 when they leave the state.. I dunno.. it's just a lot of compounding questions that is difficult to ask piecemeal, on line, instead of in person.  But I am still curious of the motivation to switching to L10.

[mreed911]

If they're using more than 10 round mags in any division at a match in NJ, that's a violation of USPSA rules.

Edited March 5 by mreed911

[PA_USPSA]

51 minutes ago, Sniperboy said:

I am just wondering if NJ matches "allow" 15 rounders for production despite the law. 

 

 

Without getting into too much detail, those of us with 10 round magazines would be at a disadvantage.  That is why we are switching to Limited 10.

Edited March 5 by PA_USPSA

[Sniperboy]

Thanks for your response and sharing that.  Coming from CA myself "if you know, you know..."
But I was sincerely interested in the motivation.

[gigamortis]

Production 15 hasn't increased participation in my area at all. 

 

If USPSA was really interested in increasing Production participation, they should have went with at least 17 rounds because that is what the majority of full size production guns actually have for magazine capacity.  That way, just one reload required in a 8/8/8/8 CoF and you will have a couple of spare rounds for shots that didn't feel just right in either half of the stage.

 

If USPSA really wanted to embrace the "Carry" part of CO, that division would be limited to 15 rounds.  Carry pistols are rarely seen with a magwell, which the current CO rules embrace.  Carry guns with more than 15 rounds are pretty rare in the real world, so...........

[Cuz]

On 2/5/2024 at 11:00 AM, 858 said:

I don't think it is coming back. The world moved on. The future is CO, LO, and Open. 

I don't disagree, but wonder why?

Is it because we're not getting many new shooters and those of us who've been around for awhile are getting older and failing eyesight is causing a move to optics?  This one is true for me personally.  Failing eyesight has forced me from Production to CO.

Is it because new shooters today are not learning to shoot with iron sights because almost all the new "cool" guns being sold today come with optic plates and are being marketed and advertised to sell with optics?  I'm seeing this in the new shooters that join our local gun club to learn to shoot.  They almost all seem to show up with new guns they just bought from one of the local gun shops and all have optics pre-mounted, so that's what they learn on.

Have plain old iron sighs just become obsolete?

 

My 2 kids still shoot iron sights (Prod & A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want), but I wonder if that's just because they really only shoot occasionally, when convenient, and don't practice at all anymore, so haven't had the opportunity to try a red dot mounted on a pistol.  I wonder if the first time they try it they will decide that's the way they want to go, and never look back.

 

I enjoyed shooting Production with iron sights and 10 rounds.  If I were still shooting it, with the 15 round rule, I would just slap a magwell on my Glock, and go to A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want rather than stay in Production.  But, then again, I'm just a grumpy old man whose still pissed they made the change from 10 to 15 rounds...

 

[mreed911]

4 hours ago, Cuz said:

Is it because new shooters today are not learning to shoot with iron sights because almost all the new "cool" guns being sold today come with optic plates and are being marketed and advertised to sell with optics?  I'm seeing this in the new shooters that join our local gun club to learn to shoot.  They almost all seem to show up with new guns they just bought from one of the local gun shops and all have optics pre-mounted, so that's what they learn on.

 

This is exactly it.  Optics are an easier starting point and don't require learning the same fundamentals.

[akarhi]

5 hours ago, Cuz said:

Is it because new shooters today are not learning to shoot with iron sights because almost all the new "cool" guns being sold today come with optic plates and are being marketed and advertised to sell with optics?  I'm seeing this in the new shooters that join our local gun club to learn to shoot.  They almost all seem to show up with new guns they just bought from one of the local gun shops and all have optics pre-mounted, so that's what they learn on.

Have plain old iron sighs just become obsolete?

Its because of video games mainly CoD. Using red dots is a lot easier than using an iron sight in the game. That what made red dots cooler.

 

Iron sights do have niche usage. For example my friend's optic came off while during the course of fire. He didnt realize until he brought the gun up to shoot the target and saw he had iron sights still and kept rolling with it.

[MHicks]

I don't know what it would be like to be a new shooter starting with optics never having used iron sights. Until last year I'd never used an ootic on a handgun only scopes on a rifle.

I have now been mostly shooting with an optic in LO after 13 years of shooting Limited and SS. For me I certainly did not just start shooting faster or more accurately when I switched to an optic. I'm getting more comfortable with it but it sure hasn't  been " this is so much easier then iron sights". 

[RJH]

11 minutes ago, MHicks said:

I don't know what it would be like to be a new shooter starting with optics never having used iron sights. Until last year I'd never used an ootic on a handgun only scopes on a rifle.

I have now been mostly shooting with an optic in LO after 13 years of shooting Limited and SS. For me I certainly did not just start shooting faster or more accurately when I switched to an optic. I'm getting more comfortable with it but it sure hasn't  been " this is so much easier then iron sights". 

 

 

I'm having the same experience. For a lot of shots I would rather have iron sights. Tight shots and distance shots the dot is nice though. And I like a red dot when shooting three gun because we shoot so many small plates. But for general USPSA I still actually prefer irons. 

 

After shooting a dot quite a bit last year, I'm going back to irons for a bunch of what I shoot this year. One of the matches I shoot has a lot of fairly close and fairly open targets generally, so a dot is not a huge advantage at that one. Won't be the most conducive for maximum performance switching back and forth, but I'm probably not winning the Cadillac anyway LOL

[akarhi]

Its the same feeling if I were to shoot irons. I started off with irons then moved to red dot but I practice much more with a red dot than anything else. Usually the principles of iron sights is some what the same as red dot. Like being target focus rather than being dot focus.

[MoNsTeR]

There are elements of gear that allow you to shoot better by eliminating (or greatly reducing) the need for certain skills.

• bigger mags means fewer reloads
• a red dot means you don't have to line up sights or manipulate the focus of your eyes
• a compensator (or shooting minor) makes recoil control significantly easier

It used to be the case that shooting Limited got you some of that stuff, and to get it all you needed to shoot Open. Now you can get most of it by shooting CO or LO: dot, big mags, low recoil. That radically reduces the amount of skill you need to put into those aspects of the game, and lets you focus on the sexy parts: splits, transitions, running fast, etc. I don't necessarily think that makes the game more fun, but many (most?) participants do.

 

Iron sights and low-cap magazines are far from obsolete in the grand scheme of things, but within the context of this game, they are.

 

A few folks, me included, have always enjoyed the challenge of going in the opposite direction: giving up the equipment advantages to force the use of those skills. That attitude is also dying.

Edited March 8 by MoNsTeR
phrasing

[akarhi]

11 minutes ago, MoNsTeR said:

A few folks, me included, have always enjoyed the challenge of going in the opposite direction: giving up the equipment advantages to force the use of those skills. That attitude is also dying.

Some of the attitude is dying but during end of the seasons I see people doing some other stuff just for fun and enjoying the sport.

[858]

On 3/8/2024 at 5:13 AM, Cuz said:

I don't disagree, but wonder why?

Is it because we're not getting many new shooters and those of us who've been around for awhile are getting older and failing eyesight is causing a move to optics?  This one is true for me personally.  Failing eyesight has forced me from Production to CO.

Is it because new shooters today are not learning to shoot with iron sights because almost all the new "cool" guns being sold today come with optic plates and are being marketed and advertised to sell with optics?  I'm seeing this in the new shooters that join our local gun club to learn to shoot.  They almost all seem to show up with new guns they just bought from one of the local gun shops and all have optics pre-mounted, so that's what they learn on.

Have plain old iron sighs just become obsolete?

 

My 2 kids still shoot iron sights (Prod & A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want), but I wonder if that's just because they really only shoot occasionally, when convenient, and don't practice at all anymore, so haven't had the opportunity to try a red dot mounted on a pistol.  I wonder if the first time they try it they will decide that's the way they want to go, and never look back.

 

I enjoyed shooting Production with iron sights and 10 rounds.  If I were still shooting it, with the 15 round rule, I would just slap a magwell on my Glock, and go to A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want rather than stay in Production.  But, then again, I'm just a grumpy old man whose still pissed they made the change from 10 to 15 rounds...

 

 

The market changed. Brand new guns come with red dots. Also, CO doesn't have stupid magazine rules.

[IHAVEGAS]

On 3/8/2024 at 3:16 PM, MoNsTeR said:

A few folks, me included, have always enjoyed the challenge of going in the opposite direction: giving up the equipment advantages to force the use of those skills. That attitude is also dying.

 

I guess maybe it is purely an age thing. The added challenges of iron sights and low capacity that made the game more fun for some of the old farts like myself just don't blow the skirts up for new shooters. 

[shred]

IMO "Challenge" is good.  I had a great time shooting Single Stack 5-6 years ago.  but all 32-round stages "because then the Open guys have to reload" and "who cares about 8 rounds per position anymore?"  quickly turn "challenge" into "not much fun" and it's no wonder people don't stick with them.

 

 

[Joe4d]

18 hours ago, shred said:

IMO "Challenge" is good.  I had a great time shooting Single Stack 5-6 years ago.  but all 32-round stages "because then the Open guys have to reload" and "who cares about 8 rounds per position anymore?"  quickly turn "challenge" into "not much fun" and it's no wonder people don't stick with them.

 

 

yeh couple times I shot single stack I felt like a 1 legged man at an ass kicking contest. 
At one time IDPA kinda defaulted to lots of 12 round stages... Everyone reloaded once and only once.  6 , 7, 8, 9, 10, and 11 round guys .

[zzt]

19 hours ago, shred said:

IMO "Challenge" is good.  I had a great time shooting Single Stack 5-6 years ago.  but all 32-round stages "because then the Open guys have to reload" and "who cares about 8 rounds per position anymore?"  quickly turn "challenge" into "not much fun" and it's no wonder people don't stick with them.

 

 

 

LoL.  I complained about that for years.  I shoot Open have zero problem doing a reload.  I always had to when I shot Limited.    However, some of the stages are a handicap to Prod, L10, and SS shooters.  When you can hose 16 shots without moving your feet, you force a standing reload for the locap shooters.  Yes, the stage was legal because they placed an additional shooting box nearby.  So you 'could' move if you were so inclined.

 

Fortunately, that has changed.  There are a lot more shorter, challenging courses now.  Most are 24+ so the CO and LO shooters have to reload at least once.  Also the is a LOT more running.  Shoot one target from the start position.  Run 20 yards to the other end of the shooting are and engage one more.  Run 15 yards up one side engaging targets as they become visible.  Fire through the ports at the top.  Run around a wall and shoot the ones on the right.  You've just covered 40+ yards.

[Schutzenmeister]

17 minutes ago, zzt said:

[...] When you can hose 16 shots without moving your feet, you force a standing reload for the locap shooters.  Yes, the stage was legal because they placed an additional shooting box nearby.  So you 'could' move if you were so inclined.

[...]

 

Legal or not ... That's an example of piss poor stage design.

[shred]

That's what we get these days at club matches.  Lip service to the rule because most of the people putting in the work to get stages on the ground no longer shoot locap divisions and it's not a thing they concern themselves with anymore.

 

Back when I shot a lot of SS, some of the clubs top shooters and setup helpers shot Production, so they had motivation to keep an eye on that.  These days not so much, even if the stage is designed so it can be set up properly.

 

"Track meet" stages are pretty dumb too IMO, but that seems to be a trend as well.  Shooting on the move so rarely works out for Minor shooters that every stage is designed to be a sprint from place to place, stand and shoot, run some more.