Dot or Irons for EDC

[Stafford]

For those that compete with a red dot, do you also have a dot on your carry pistols?

[Nathanb]

I do

[RJH]

Not yet. Considering it, but still on fence

[Bhayden]

No, with EDC, I want the least amount of things that can go wrong. A dot is just something else that can fail.

[RangerTrace]

Absolutely.  Once you take the time and effort to commit to the dot, you might as well have them on all your guns.  Not to mention they are far better than night sights for low light shooting.

[shred]

I tried it but the Romeo Zero dot was not well designed for EDC.  

 

[LDRIDER]

Not for me. "Finding" the dot on a stage can be stressful enough. Add low 

light conditions and possible return fire, you could be firing blind. But with

anything practice is your friend. I'm sure you can become confident

enough to succesfully use a dot with your EDC. It's just not for me.

[Stage 3]

23 hours ago, RangerTrace said:

Absolutely.  Once you take the time and effort to commit to the dot, you might as well have them on all your guns.  Not to mention they are far better than night sights for low light shooting.

100% agree, dots on everything.

[lgh]

The gun should aim to where your eyes are looking regardless of irons or dot. There is no "finding the dot" when you become proficient with a dot. It's there just like the irons would be - on the target. The dot has the big advantage of being in the same focal plane as the target which is where your (tunnel) vision will be focused in a EDC scenario. Basic physiology tells us we will not be physically able to lock in our vision on the front sight under the stress of a threat. All the more important to dry fire a lot. Gun goes where eyes go regardless of sightng system.

 

For the record, I carry both ways depending on situation.

[RJH]

The only problem I have with some of the "the dot is going to definitely be there if you train hard enough" sentiment, is that I've seen high-end GMs make a bad draw or retrieve a gun from a table and have to hunt for a dot. Most of those guys are training quite a bit. 

 

That's not to say I'm completely against the dot, but there can be issues, even if you train a LOT

[RJH]

One other thought on shooting at night. A light on your pistol makes night sights irrelevant, and also can act as an aiming device at close range IME

 

Though I do agree a dot at night in conjunction with a light is pretty  awesome, especially when shooting at distance

[lgh]

1 hour ago, RJH said:

make a bad draw or retrieve a gun from a table and have to hunt for a dot.

But the same happens with irons. Even the good guys throw a shot once in awhile.

 

Way back when, on the recommendation of my instructor, I determined under what light conditions night sights were actually useful. Not very often. As one guy said, "They help you find the gun." And you still need to light up the scene. And they fade away over time. Since then I haven't paid a cent to put night sights on a gun. Give me a dot and a light any day (or night).

 

Back on topic, I get the impression green is becoming everyone's favorite color. I've been trying both green and red under different lighting conditions and with different dot sizes. Dot size seems more important until you get outside with a small dot. Then green wins. But not by all that much.

[RJH]

7 minutes ago, lgh said:

But the same happens with irons. Even the good guys throw a shot once in awhile.

 

 

 

 

But I'm not talking about throwing a shot every once in awhile. I'm talking about understanding which general direction the gun is pointed in. And Iron-sighted gun, or even a gun with no sights at all, you can tell the general direction it's pointed because you can see the slide in your periphery.

 

With a dot on the gun, you lose that peripheral vision on the front end of the gun simply because the dot is in the way. That's why when a dot shooter can't find the dot they wiggle the gun all over the place. If they knew they were pointing to the left they would only direct the gun back to the right a little, but they do not have that extra visual input of the front of the slide

 

So while both shooters might throw a shot occasionally, I don't know that I've ever seen an iron sight shooter wiggle the gun around because he couldn't tell which rough direction his front sight was pointing simply by looking over them

 

Maybe that makes sense LOL. And like I say I'm not completely against dots, but I do think there are some things that  have to be considered that many people don't

[HesedTech]

8 minutes ago, RJH said:

With a dot on the gun, you lose that peripheral vision on the front end of the gun simply because the dot is in the way.

Disagree 100% with this statement. When using a dot the target becomes the focus and does not required matching of the front and rear sights. This alone gives one more peripheral awareness and vision ability. 

 

As far as "finding the dot" goes, if you have actually observed proficient USPSA competitors who use a dot you would notice they do everything sooner. Why? Because it's easier to look at where one wants the shot to go and then put the sight on it. Target focus.

 

But the thread is about a dot for carry puroses.

 

Yes A dot is better, except it adds one more device to the gun. It comes down to what one thinks their carry weapon should be prepared for. I know a friend who carries a SBR 300 BO in a back pack as his defense gun.

 

Here's my thoughts:

If it's an in close encounter then who needs a dot. If precision is a possibility the dot is a blessing, enhancing both accuracy and speed. 

 

Like all things though, throwing a dot on a gun and not actually practicing with it is a pretty dumb idea.  By practice I don't mean shooting a couple of boxes of white box. I mean actual regular dry fire and yes thousands of rounds. 

 

What do I have? Both, with and without a dot.

[RJH]

28 minutes ago, HesedTech said:

Disagree 100% with this statement. When using a dot the target becomes the focus and does not required matching of the front and rear sights. This alone gives one more peripheral awareness and vision ability. 

 

As far as "finding the dot" goes, if you have actually observed proficient USPSA competitors who use a dot you would notice they do everything sooner. Why? Because it's easier to look at where one wants the shot to go and then put the sight on it. Target focus.

 

But the thread is about a dot for carry puroses.

 

Yes A dot is better, except it adds one more device to the gun. It comes down to what one thinks their carry weapon should be prepared for. I know a friend who carries a SBR 300 BO in a back pack as his defense gun.

 

Here's my thoughts:

If it's an in close encounter then who needs a dot. If precision is a possibility the dot is a blessing, enhancing both accuracy and speed. 

 

Like all things though, throwing a dot on a gun and not actually practicing with it is a pretty dumb idea.  By practice I don't mean shooting a couple of boxes of white box. I mean actual regular dry fire and yes thousands of rounds. 

 

What do I have? Both, with and without a dot.

 

 

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying on the part you disagree with 100%. I'm saying you lose the front of the gun in your periphery which can cause issues if you don't have the dot in your window on your draw

 

And yes, high end USPSA dot shooters do do everything sooner, until they can't find the dot and have to wiggle the gun around looking for it, and those are the instances I'm talking about here

 

I agree with everything else you're saying. And like I said about 14 times already I'm not saying a dot is horrible, I'm just saying it's not always best. There could however be a case for it being best most of the time, if a person is willing to put in some work

 

One other thing, most carry guns are not as big and easy to get a grip on as the guns people are shooting in USPSA and even IDPA. And they also generally have a smaller window on their dot, both of which would have a better chance of leaving to not finding the dot on the draw

Edited October 16, 2023 by RJH

[HesedTech]

29 minutes ago, RJH said:

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying on the part you disagree with 100%. I'm saying you lose the front of the gun in your periphery which can cause issues if you don't have the dot in your window on your draw

No I got that.

 

Why I disagree is this, if a person is trained and proficient with a dot they do everything sooner. Close shots don't even need a dot just like point and shoot with irons. As far as your "wiggle" goes, yes we all lose the dot occasionally, but we do the same with irons. On precision shots, even when losing the dot, one will be able to take the shot sooner. But, ya got to practice!!!

 

It all depends on ability, confidence and proficiency. 

 

Personally I feel irons work fine for EDC, because I believe most encounters will be within 10 yards and anything less than 5 really doesn't require much of a sight to hit center mass. It was called combat shooting when I was trained years ago. Don't forget the history of pistol use is just in-close personal defense. 

Edited October 16, 2023 by HesedTech

[whan]

Yes, dot on my CCW and HD gun, but I am very picky about having grip angles match via all my guns. Because I mostly shoot my competition CO gun, it’s important to me that my CCW and HD guns have approximately the same grip angle, so that the presentation is the same across all platforms. In this case, it’s a P365, P320 and Tanfoglio Stock 2, but they also match my 1911 as well. I actually chose the Stock 2 over the Shadow 2, since the CZ in my hands points slightly high

[ColoradoNick]

9 hours ago, RJH said:

The only problem I have with some of the "the dot is going to definitely be there if you train hard enough" sentiment, is that I've seen high-end GMs make a bad draw or retrieve a gun from a table and have to hunt for a dot. Most of those guys are training quite a bit. 

 

That's not to say I'm completely against the dot, but there can be issues, even if you train a LOT

Literally never seen a GM not find the dot... ever. I have an SRO on my carry gun and soon to be a 507 comp. I don't even have a front sight post. Most self defense situations are within 7 yards. I don't need a dot or irons for that, it's a luxury. 

Edited October 17, 2023 by ColoradoNick

[lgh]

On 10/16/2023 at 10:52 AM, RJH said:

And Iron-sighted gun, or even a gun with no sights at all, you can tell the general direction it's pointed because you can see the slide in your periphery.

 

With a dot on the gun, you lose that peripheral vision on the front end of the gun simply because the dot is in the way.

I think I understand what you mean. I have 5 G17, four with dots. All the dots are on milled slides. i.e. no adaptor plates. The dots sit very low. On three of those with dots, I left the irons on and so can see the slide as a reference point in all cases.  The G17 without irons has a Vortex Venom. Even though it sits low, I still don't see the slide while shooting. It doesn't matter to me because I learned dots on that gun and never knew the difference - with or without irons.  But if someone wants a reference point, just put a front sight on. Depending on your setup, it might require a suppressor sight. For me, the front sight doesn't interfere with sight picture but for some it might. I'm only a casual gamer.

[maur]

Yes. I have cowitness irons as well but if you change your dot battery every year I dont really see a reason to need it. 

[flyinverted]

I have 8+ dots on competition guns.  On the EDC, it is irons only. For giggles the other day, I was hitting 18x24 steel at 50 yards and quickly with the irons. That's all I needed to know.  Even with the stress and other distractions of an actual shoot, I do not even remotely think I will miss my target. 

[IVC]

Dots are not practical on *all* carry guns. On my pocket-carry PM9 it's not an option. On my IWB setups I could have one, I just don't. These are not guns to run competition drills or to practice at speed where the dot makes a difference, these guns are for self-defense, likely at a very short range and possibly from an index without aiming at contact distances. 

 

But if you have a dot and it doesn't affect concealability or draw and you aren't worried about the battery or glare in the dark, definitely nothing wrong with having a dot. Who knows, I might have a setup in the future with the dot, but at the moment it seems like a solution looking for a problem. 

[GOF]

On 10/15/2023 at 9:07 AM, Bhayden said:

No, with EDC, I want the least amount of things that can go wrong. A dot is just something else that can fail.

A big +1. Iron sights are always there. Dots, as any competitor (including myself) can tell you they will fail at times. The very vast percentage of self-defense situations occur at closer ranges. Sometimes even close enough that just looking over the top of the pistol is enough.  I won't go into my 10-year military service much of it in the far east, but I've BTDT twice. I didn't wish I'd had a red dot. I do shoot one in competition, but if it fails I'm just out of a decent score. If it fails in personal protection I'm out much more. I'll stick with irons. They always work.

[Racinready300ex]

I've been back and forth on the subject. Right now I don't have one, Overall I like optics, I shoot them better, they're the future. I even shot my carry gun with a 507k in a IDPA major and didn't have the dot on during a stage. So I just used the optic like a peep sight and won the stage. So even if it dies on you, it's not game over. I think the tiny window may of helped me, just a theory.

 

One thing I consider is I know most likely I wont need to use the gun to defend myself. If I do I many not even need to fire a shot. When you do shoot the vast majority are of cases are 7 yards or less, with the majority of those being just outside 2 arms reach. That's about 3 yards. Given all that it's really unlikely the dot is going to help me any.

 

But, in a world of mall shootings, and church shooters and things like that going down, situations exist where a optic might be the move. Just realize you're more likely to get struck by lightning.... but hell I know a guy that's been struck by lightening 2 or 3 times. So who knows lol. 

[oddjob]

I do not have a dot (Sig 365). My son has a dot on his duty & off duty gun (also a Sig 365).