Dot or Irons for EDC

[dgl503]

+1 for dot with co-witness irons for edc 

[ltdmstr]

I don't dress like John Fetterman, and have a hard enough time concealing a Shield Plus with irons for EDC.  The idea of concealing a double stack with a dot plus a spare magazine is pretty nuts to me, in terms of both size and weight.  Also, I'm significantly faster with irons inside of 10 yards, which is where 90+% of defensive shootings occur.  I really could care less that dot guns are the new hotness, or what anyone else thinks.  For me, they're not practical, and don't offer any benefit.  So, I'm gonna pass on that.

[Bentron]

Dots on everything for me. 

[dtuns]

Run dot on all my pistols.

[lgh]

On 12/2/2023 at 1:49 PM, ltdmstr said:

which is where 90+% of defensive shootings occur.  

I do get your point but what if you're in the 10% situation? Personally, I'm OK with irons but dots might come in handy. I carry irons most of the time but recently have gone to a G17 when I can carry it. With a dot. I really like that big handle of a full size. OWB when it fits my attire.

[ltdmstr]

18 minutes ago, lgh said:

I do get your point but what if you're in the 10% situation?

 

The slight benefit the dot provides in that situation is far outweighed by the hassle and inconvenience of lugging around a big heavy gun with a dot on it all day long.  If that's my only option, probably in most instances I'm not even going to bother because it's such a PIA.  Also, from a legal standpoint, if you're at a distance where you really need a dot for accuracy, then you're almost 100% better off getting out of there vs engaging the threat.  And in many states, that's actually what the law requires.

[RangerTrace]

8 hours ago, ltdmstr said:

 

The slight benefit the dot provides in that situation is far outweighed by the hassle and inconvenience of lugging around a big heavy gun with a dot on it all day long.  If that's my only option, probably in most instances I'm not even going to bother because it's such a PIA.  Also, from a legal standpoint, if you're at a distance where you really need a dot for accuracy, then you're almost 100% better off getting out of there vs engaging the threat.  And in many states, that's actually what the law requires.

Not all dot guns are big and heavy these days.  The CS I'm carrying at work is 22 ounces and lots of folks are carrying the little Sigs or G43x that is even lighter.  While I agree, most shootings are gonna be so close, no sights are used at all.  If you find yourself in a active school shooter situation, you may be glad you have the dot for a 75 yard shot.  I was brought up with the saying, better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.

[lgh]

10 hours ago, ltdmstr said:

the hassle and inconvenience of lugging around a big heavy gun

I used to carry a 1911 or Glock 30. That G30 was like carrying a brick in your pants!

[flyinverted]

I counted 8 dots for my competition guns.  No dots for my EDC guns. I recently shot an NRA D1 target at 50 yards with no misses with my P320 carry gun. That took away all my desire to put any dot on any of my carry guns. Stats show a real engagement will be much closer, and since I shoot 500+ rounds weekly competitively, I'm much more confident in Irons only for EDC.

[andy27al]

I haven’t figured out how to fit my SRO on my j-frame yet..

 

in all seriousness, almost all of my pistols have dots. The ones that matter have cowitness irons 

[Racinready300ex]

On 12/7/2023 at 11:43 AM, flyinverted said:

I counted 8 dots for my competition guns.  No dots for my EDC guns. I recently shot an NRA D1 target at 50 yards with no misses with my P320 carry gun. That took away all my desire to put any dot on any of my carry guns. Stats show a real engagement will be much closer, and since I shoot 500+ rounds weekly competitively, I'm much more confident in Irons only for EDC.

 

You're right, statistically defensive shootings happen just outside of 2 arms reach. So like 3 yards. The odds of being involved in a mall shooting or similar where distances are more extreme are vary rare. You're probably more likely to get struck by lightning.

 

That said, I know a dude that's been struck by lightening like 3 times. 

 

I'm fine carrying with irons, I also don't carry a spare mag. 

[JOThompson]

I have dots on two of my guns. I don't carry them. I've done thousands of dryfires but 1) I can't find the dot 2) the point of impact seems so high over my 1/3 lower cowitness irons that I don't feel like I can trust the dot, but don't see the point of going full cowitness. Any suggestions?

[RJH]

7 minutes ago, JOThompson said:

I have dots on two of my guns. I don't carry them. I've done thousands of dryfires but 1) I can't find the dot 2) the point of impact seems so high over my 1/3 lower cowitness irons that I don't feel like I can trust the dot, but don't see the point of going full cowitness. Any suggestions?

 

 

Take it to some matches. You'll learn that the dot being over your co-witness sights doesn't actually matter, the bullet is going to go where the dot is, assuming it sighted in. 

 

Also, drawing in live fire will help you to find the dot, at least it did in my experience. The more I shoot it the easier it is to find. 

 

 

I still just have irons on my carry gun though.....

[Boomstick303]

What I find interesting is how anyone thinks that dots or irons will be used in most instances of a self defense shooting.  As @Racinready300exmentioned most self defense shooting occur so close you will not have time to use a dot or irons, and most likely revert to natural index aiming of the gun.  Would anyone agree a more important question would be what gun do you index the best?  

 

Rare occasions is where the dot or irons would actually be used.  An instance like the Dickens dude that dropped the mass shooter in Indiana.  In situations like that is where actually aiming matters are rare in self defense shootings.  

 

In any case it does not matter which system is used as long as the user is proficient.  Obviously both systems have pros and cons, but both are able to perform the task effectively.

 

 

[Dr. Phil]

I may be the bad dog but I prefer a grip laser. Barring that I have some with irons and a small trigger guard laser.

No you can't back-track a laser which I have heard claimed.

Lasers are considered an "un-fair" advantage so they are not allowed at most matches. They are far superior in many instances.

Try hiding behind and shooting around cover with your red dot or irons.

I have many guns with dots and they are great. Some with irons. But the laser beats them all.

[IVC]

On 12/10/2023 at 9:17 AM, Dr. Phil said:

I have many guns with dots and they are great. Some with irons. But the laser beats them all.

Lasers are explicitly allowed for PCC and they aren't forbidden for Open in Appendix D1.14 like they are in other divisions. Yet they are rarely used and mostly on PCCs to get the first shot without aiming. Not an advantage you claim.   

[MHicks]

On 12/7/2023 at 8:43 AM, flyinverted said:

I counted 8 dots for my competition guns.  No dots for my EDC guns. I recently shot an NRA D1 target at 50 yards with no misses with my P320 carry gun. That took away all my desire to put any dot on any of my carry guns. Stats show a real engagement will be much closer, and since I shoot 500+ rounds weekly competitively, I'm much more confident in Irons only for EDC.

I shoot a few USPSA matches a month. I'm just curious what type of competition shooting you're doing shooting 500+ rounds a week.  As far as the other shooter saying lasers are such a huge advantage, go shoot an action match using your laser and let us know the results.

[Dr. Phil]

10 hours ago, IVC said:

Lasers are explicitly allowed for PCC and they aren't forbidden for Open in Appendix D1.14 like they are in other divisions. Yet they are rarely used and mostly on PCCs to get the first shot without aiming. Not an advantage you claim.   

I have seen that advantage in lots of situations from shooting in a dark room, nearly dark and with the light in your eyes, to awkward shooting positions which don't allow a full or even partial field of view of the sights. The advantage is real, just as the dot advantage is real. I don't like the laser so much at 50 yards, but the laser works at that range if it is the right laser.

Yes the laser is an option on PCC. I have seen Pcc guns with a light, laser, dot, scope and stand off sights. All have their place. The question was "what do I prefer on my EDC?" Laser. Proven over and over.

FWIW, at a Halloween dark match near home, I finished a stage with a flashlight and a mover at the end, 15 yards, 25 fut run, going past windows and doors and had 6 shots in the X. Almost nobody else had 2 in the down 0. One of the other shooters looked at it and said, "Well, the laser is an unfair advantage."

I don't use it for steel challenge. But real time /real life? Laser.

Exactly.

[leadaddict]

I added the dot to my EDC about a year ago. The Holosun SCS on a G19 allows the standard height irons to be used on the bottom third of the window. No on/off, no adjusting brightness, no changing batteries, it's just always there. In my experience, after a year of practice and competition with it, there's no speed difference at close range and an absolute advantage at mid to longer ranges over irons.

One huge advantage of training with a dot is that it gives much more precise information (feedback) to the shooter. If your grip or presentation is inconsistent you see it more obviously when the dot doesn't appear vs irons. If you're jerking the trigger or flinching, the dot movement before the shot breaks and the sights lift, it's much easier to see. At distance, the precision of the dot is far superior to irons in seeing where shots break (infinite sight radius!). I think what I, and many people, struggle with early on is over-confirming the dot on closer targets when that's just not needed. Like someone said earlier, at 3 yards you don't needs sights, or even to see a dot in the window.

Edited December 13, 2023 by leadaddict

[whan]

Dot for me. While I think given engagement distances / types it’s less of an advantage for CCW, it is still fundamentally a force multiplier for your handgun. Between the comp’d slide on my P365XL Macro Comp, and the dot, it gives me a lot of confidence in my capabilities for what is otherwise a very small and light handgun. Have shot a few outlaw CCW matches and found that this setup doesn’t leave my really wanting anything more for EDC

 

 

[IVC]

4 hours ago, Dr. Phil said:

I have seen that advantage in lots of situations from shooting in a dark room, nearly dark and with the light in your eyes, to awkward shooting positions which don't allow a full or even partial field of view of the sights. The advantage is real, just as the dot advantage is real. I don't like the laser so much at 50 yards, but the laser works at that range if it is the right laser.

To the extent you can shoot a laser the same as a dot, it's an advantage over iron sights - target focus, no alignment issues, visible on target.

 

But the "awkward shooting position" benefit is dubious at best because you still have to see the target and have a direct line of sight, so if you cannot bring the gun to this line of sight, you're either shooting off of some other index at extremely close range (where sights don't matter), or it's something *really* awkward where you're going to have to "fish" for the laser dot anyways, which is very slow for a dynamic situation. 

 

On the other hand, the dot will be much better during target acquisition because it shows in your peripheral vision as the gun is brought to the target and because it will be "settling" on the target the same regardless of the size or location of the target. A laser won't show at all in your peripheral vision unless there is a very close background and not only it won't settle on a small target, but you won't be able to find it in the first place because you'll have to index it practically perfectly just so you can see the dot on the small target. Not to mention that lasers don't work in regular daylight past close distances. In these situation the laser is *much* worse than iron sights because you can't use it at all. 

 

I would say that laser as the only/primary system is the worst option for both self defense and competition. At best it's a useful add-on in *some* situations (I have a SureFire green laser and have tried finding a good use for it, but couldn't). 

[Dr. Phil]

FWIW my laser guns have big dot night sights also.

I guess your many years of testing has discovered much different results than mine.

I'm out

[IVC]

On 12/13/2023 at 12:04 PM, Dr. Phil said:

I guess your many years of testing has discovered much different results than mine.

I gave you specific arguments, not some story about "my experience" or "trust me." If you discovered different results, you can state them and refute what I said. This is a discussion forum and the idea is to have a (gasp) discussion about what does and does not work. I would be more than happy to hear about your "experience" and "findings" and discuss them. I also own a laser and can state my own experiences, for what they are worth to the community. 

 

What are you, three year old or something? 

 

On 12/13/2023 at 12:04 PM, Dr. Phil said:

I'm out

Yup, three year old. 

 

[rapture090]

I have one on my EDC. I have the HE507c with the large ring and it helps

[Dr. Phil]

4 hours ago, IVC said:

I gave you specific arguments, not some story about "my experience" or "trust me." If you discovered different results, you can state them and refute what I said. This is a discussion forum and the idea is to have a (gasp) discussion about what does and does not work. I would be more than happy to hear about your "experience" and "findings" and discuss them. I also own a laser and can state my own experiences, for what they are worth to the community. 

 

What are you, three year old or something? 

 

Yup, three year old. 

 

Okay, I will break my personal rule #2 and reply. I will try to be as mature as that guy that is so hungry for the last word that he calls another person's opinion ":a three year old". Very mature.

You say you are not interested in my "story about experiences or trust me", yet you say you want a "discussion" about what does and does not work. So you want what you don't want? Yeah.

I have used lasers for about 16 years on and off. I have shot them at matches on moving, still, hidden behind 'no shoots' and about every other way to place targets. They work. For me. BTW if you can't see your laser in some conditions or ranges, try green. If you can look over, under or around cover, you can stay under cover and aim with the laser and still hit without revealing your person. It works. Moving targets are easier to hit because the laser gives a real time exact placement on target. Laser are tough for some to "hold still", not impossible. Like any other sight. The "dead battery" thing is silly. We replace batteries all the time. Several of my laser batteries I have replace after 5 years. Not because they were dead, but because it had been 5 years. I have tested laser continuously for the last 16 or so years because if you are going to carry it, it has to work 100%, like and other carry item.

I never said that it was the only sight platform to use or that I use. The O.P. question was "What do you use on your EDC?"

I would think that a person who wants a "discussion" might find better ways to incite one other than insults and cheap name calling. Shame on you.

If you want to use a laser, fine. If you do not, don't. I could really care less. You and I will never meet. Fine with me. You continue to bully people via the internet, and I will continue to try to answer some questions via this forum. I am still learning too. Like I have learned this valuable lesson.

The reason I was out was actually to try to give you the last word, but, I really don't like bullies. So now you get the last word here. 

Rule # 2: Never argue with an idiot. (Websters used to define 'idiot' as "someone who can't be reasoned with".)

The 3-year-old now relinquishes the floor to the California delegate.