Dot or Irons for EDC

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, Dr. Phil said:

Okay, I will break my personal rule #2 and reply. I will try to be as mature as that guy that is so hungry for the last word that he calls another person's opinion ":a three year old". Very mature.

You say you are not interested in my "story about experiences or trust me", yet you say you want a "discussion" about what does and does not work. So you want what you don't want? Yeah.

I have used lasers for about 16 years on and off. I have shot them at matches on moving, still, hidden behind 'no shoots' and about every other way to place targets. They work. For me. BTW if you can't see your laser in some conditions or ranges, try green. If you can look over, under or around cover, you can stay under cover and aim with the laser and still hit without revealing your person. It works. Moving targets are easier to hit because the laser gives a real time exact placement on target. Laser are tough for some to "hold still", not impossible. Like any other sight. The "dead battery" thing is silly. We replace batteries all the time. Several of my laser batteries I have replace after 5 years. Not because they were dead, but because it had been 5 years. I have tested laser continuously for the last 16 or so years because if you are going to carry it, it has to work 100%, like and other carry item.

I never said that it was the only sight platform to use or that I use. The O.P. question was "What do you use on your EDC?"

I would think that a person who wants a "discussion" might find better ways to incite one other than insults and cheap name calling. Shame on you.

If you want to use a laser, fine. If you do not, don't. I could really care less. You and I will never meet. Fine with me. You continue to bully people via the internet, and I will continue to try to answer some questions via this forum. I am still learning too. Like I have learned this valuable lesson.

The reason I was out was actually to try to give you the last word, but, I really don't like bullies. So now you get the last word here. 

Rule # 2: Never argue with an idiot. (Websters used to define 'idiot' as "someone who can't be reasoned with".)

The 3-year-old now relinquishes the floor to the California delegate.

 

Personal stuff directed at others aside. You're the only person I've heard try to make much of a case for lasers. And when I watch people use them most would be much better off with out it. I've used one some on a PCC, only when I can't use the optic. It's better than not having anything but if I could see my dot that would of been better. It's slow and clunky to use. Probably somewhat a skill issue, but I don't know that's entirely the problem. 

 

I think the issue comes with vision. I target focus with irons and red dot. You index the gun and the sight comes into you're vision and you fire. You never focus on the dot. 

 

With a laser, especially using it the way you're describing you're not really going to be indexing the gun so I would imagine it's easy for someone to look for the dot and be tracking the dot as it moves around vs focusing on the target. This is probably what leads to the slowness when watching people use them. 

 

I'd be interested to see video of you running a laser in a match. As I mentioned the only people I've seen try that ended up slow and it's vary obvious they're focusing on the laser and shooting reactively. With the exception of shooting from the hip with out aiming or odd pcc specific stuff like that. 

[Dr. Phil]

I actually shoot a laser just like a dot. For multiple targets the dot is there, and so is the laser dot. One difference being the gun position. With a laser it really doesn't matter. Unless you are Taren Butler or John Wick!

The whole EDC thing is the difference I think. I am thinking more of the draw stroke/shot being nearly simultaneous. Maybe not but that's how it looks to me.

I see the laser as another tool in the box; irons are great for people with young (usually) and good (often) vision, depending on how their focus ability is. 

Dots are great for what they are capable of (the line of sight factor, quickness of acquisition, speed of target definition, etc.) But I remember when the red dots first came out, the number of "I never will!" people I heard at matches. I was on the dot side early then too. Now most of my fun guns and match guns have dots. They are also a great training tool for newer shooters.

Lasers are a tool. No more, no less. They, too, are a great training tool for newer shooters giving instant feedback to things like punching the trigger, grip problems, etc. Like many of the same type questions from people here on the forum. I try to see what can/will help shorten the learning curve. I don't believe in one and only one tool for every job. We don't use a hammer to tighten screws, usually, or a chainsaw to cut the lawn. I am on the side of whatever I can use/learn to aid my shooting at my speed.

The matches I mention are for carry guns in real-world setups, when I host fellow shooters on my home range. We often shoot 1 night a week all summer and early fall. Many people have never tried or wanted to try club matches. They mostly just want to learn the safety and have a chance to try shooting stages and such without a lot of pressure or expense.  I use the news reports of shootings in real life and make stages that simulate them. A better way I feel than getting shot at in real life. I am always surprised when I ask people how often they shoot their carry guns the number who say, "Well, hardly ever." 

Thank you for the discussion.

[Racinready300ex]

44 minutes ago, Dr. Phil said:

I actually shoot a laser just like a dot. For multiple targets the dot is there, and so is the laser dot. One difference being the gun position. With a laser it really doesn't matter. Unless you are Taren Butler or John Wick!

The whole EDC thing is the difference I think. I am thinking more of the draw stroke/shot being nearly simultaneous. Maybe not but that's how it looks to me.

I see the laser as another tool in the box; irons are great for people with young (usually) and good (often) vision, depending on how their focus ability is. 

Dots are great for what they are capable of (the line of sight factor, quickness of acquisition, speed of target definition, etc.) But I remember when the red dots first came out, the number of "I never will!" people I heard at matches. I was on the dot side early then too. Now most of my fun guns and match guns have dots. They are also a great training tool for newer shooters.

Lasers are a tool. No more, no less. They, too, are a great training tool for newer shooters giving instant feedback to things like punching the trigger, grip problems, etc. Like many of the same type questions from people here on the forum. I try to see what can/will help shorten the learning curve. I don't believe in one and only one tool for every job. We don't use a hammer to tighten screws, usually, or a chainsaw to cut the lawn. I am on the side of whatever I can use/learn to aid my shooting at my speed.

The matches I mention are for carry guns in real-world setups, when I host fellow shooters on my home range. We often shoot 1 night a week all summer and early fall. Many people have never tried or wanted to try club matches. They mostly just want to learn the safety and have a chance to try shooting stages and such without a lot of pressure or expense.  I use the news reports of shootings in real life and make stages that simulate them. A better way I feel than getting shot at in real life. I am always surprised when I ask people how often they shoot their carry guns the number who say, "Well, hardly ever." 

Thank you for the discussion.

 

My thinking is if the draw stroke and shot are simultaneous then that's somewhat predictive shooting. At least how I'm picturing it. So you must know the instant the gun is out it will be on target. You're not really waiting to visually see a laser to queue you to fire the shot. Unless maybe just a flash of color at that point, if it's predictive you could likely do the same thing with out the laser. 

 

This is not generally what I see from people using lasers. They're slow and have more trouble aiming, probably in part because they're trying to use the laser at distances that it's really not practical. At vary close range I can see how someone might get good with one. But at vary close range I generally make do with out using my sights anyway. 

 

I've shot a couple IDPA stages with my carry gun and the dot turned off just using the window like a peep sight. At moderate distances it works fine. In fact I won a stage at a level 3 like that once. (That time was not planned)

 

I agree they're a tool and can be a good aid to show someone how the gun is moving. But on my carry gun at this time it's not a tool I see any real use for. 

[IVC]

On 12/15/2023 at 9:18 AM, Dr. Phil said:

I actually shoot a laser just like a dot.

You can't, that's the problem.

 

The dot is there regardless of the background or the light conditions, the laser is not. Laser needs background to reflect off of. Standalone targets (no good background), (semi)distant targets, outdoors targets in the sun, etc., are all examples of where not only you can't shoot laser like a dot, but you can barely shoot it at all. There is no laser dot until you're very close to being fully settled, there is no peripheral dot as you index the gun.

 

I would compare it to shooting 4x+ pistol scope off-hand at, say, 50 yards. If/when you get the crosshairs on target you do get the benefit, but you can't get it there fast and for all practical applications it's not a good setup. 

 

Can you explain how you shoot laser at a single steel plate at 20 yards? 

[Dr. Phil]

I will try.

1 I lift the gun, looking through the sights at the single plate at 20 yards. Or at the large plate at 50. Or the, well, hopefully you get it...

2 I see the sights and the dot.

3 I press the trigger.

Yeesh. It ain't rocket science.

I do love the way you somehow know what I can't do though. That's refreshing.

What some call impossible, others, through trial and testing call intuitive.

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by Dr. Phil

[IVC]

11 hours ago, Dr. Phil said:

1 I lift the gun, looking through the sights at the single plate at 20 yards. Or at the large plate at 50. Or the, well, hopefully you get it...

No I don't. 

 

If you have a 6" plate at 50 yards we are talking about angular size of 12 MOA, which is 1/5 of a degree. Let's make it a 12" plate, for 0.4 degrees and let's round it off to 1/2 a degree, so it's an even bigger plate. Given that the width of your pinky at arm's length is about 1 degree, we are talking about a target the size of half of the width of your pinky. Correct?

 

Now, you have a laser and a target that is a quarter size of your pinky (half width, half height... squares and all that), you raise the gun and the dot is not on the target. Which way and how do you move your gun to get the dot on the target? I assume you're not claiming that you can close your eyes, index at the target and be within quarter of the pinky nail from the center of the plate, right? Instead, you'll have a small target, no visible dot anywhere, and... now what? Which way and how do you adjust your aim so the dot even gets on the target at all?

 

I won't even get into the (in)ability to see the dot on a 50 yard plate, but if you insist it works, I'll actually take photos of a green laser (SureFire X400) at this distance and post it here, then you can post your own photo and we can compare our notes. 

[RangerTrace]

That is a lot of fancy talk.  The only place I've seen a laser work worth a darn is indoor matches where the range is dimly lit.  Outside they suck.  

[Racinready300ex]

22 hours ago, Dr. Phil said:

I will try.

1 I lift the gun, looking through the sights at the single plate at 20 yards. Or at the large plate at 50. Or the, well, hopefully you get it...

2 I see the sights and the dot.

3 I press the trigger.

Yeesh. It ain't rocket science.

I do love the way you somehow know what I can't do though. That's refreshing.

What some call impossible, others, through trial and testing call intuitive.

 

 

To me that sounds like on difficult shots the iron sights are doing a chunk of the work and the laser is just there to confirm. At that point you could just use irons with a target focus (like many of us already do) and get the same result just you loose that laser telling you you're doing it right. One could also make the case that the laser could be a distraction and cause you to focus on it and not a spot on the target you want to hit. 

 

A dot would 100% be better in the above situation. 

[Runswithwood1]

A dot would be something I would consider in the future, the dot is obviously quicker but my theory with a CC handgun is keep it simple, my irons are zeroed at 7 yards. However with modern dots I really dont have any skepticism about battery life, durability, etc

[shred]

Minimally-trained people (think: "just got a CCW" through maybe B/C class) in general score better and faster 5-10 yards with a laser than a dot.

 

https://blog.krtraining.com/red-dot-study-key-points/

 

Experienced shooters on match-type scenarios with 30+ rounds all over the range, not so much.

 

 

[IVC]

Interesting study and good to see someone collect and analyze the data.

 

But the conclusion should be a bit more qualified, especially if they are going to submit it to an academic journal - the emphasis must be on the untrained shooters. The finding that people who don't know how to use a red dot will not do well with a red dot, or will do better with irons or lasers, is much less dramatic than any finding about how *trained* people perform with each sighting system. Also notice that his graphs show irons outperforming any other aiming system across the board, again confirming that this is about untrained shooters. 

 

Beside small factual inaccuracies (e.g., that "GMs are the top 5% in USPSA") and some technical inaccuracies (e.g., about comparing divisions where differences are more than just the sighting system; and more), the study shows what we intuitively know - a person who doesn't know how to type will be faster writing it down than pecking at the keyboard, or, a person who doesn't know how to ride a bike will get to the grocery store faster on foot.

 

Yes, red dots have a learning curve before they start outperforming other sighting systems, something we all went through when first learning the dot. Searching for the dot it a telltale sign of someone new to the system, especially when doing SHO/WHO. 

[iukamedic]

Everyone has their own approach to defensive shooting.  I’m older and dont see great anymore for aiming it is very helpful for me to use an optic.  During normal draw and presentation I have to really focus to pick up on irons except at night when the tritium shines well.  That being said my pocket carry is a small get off of me type approach with no optic or really usable site.   I consider it a close up defense.  As far as aiming goes I have a friend that went to an active shooter course in which they cleared their homes and had everyday life scenarios.  They used training Glocks that shot actual projectiles.  He is a proficient shooter with irons on his carry Glock.  He said that under stress he completely missed two opponents at 7 yards with small movements by the opponent. Not saying anything about his proficiency just saying that under stress I don’t know if it matters which sighting system is used. 

[99mpower]

massive debate... all really depends on what you are comfortable with, type of holster, type of dot, etc, etc