New USPSA Survey

[sandflea316]

7 minutes ago, mikeg1005 said:

 

To be fair... people need to call this s#!t out at their local matches... trash stage designers existed way way before CO was even talked about.  Illegal stages suck for all divisons IMHO... being able to stand and shoot 16-18rds in limited isn't 'fun' either and really screws over shooters who eventually go to major matches and learn what 'real' stages are like.  

Most people aren't invested enough to build stages.  Most people rather just show up, pay the entry fee and shoot.  No vested interest to input on stage layout.  Hell getting folks to stay and break down the bays can be an issue at times.  

[mikeg1005]

Just now, sandflea316 said:

Most people aren't invested enough to build stages.  Most people rather just show up, pay the entry fee and shoot.  No vested interest to input on stage layout.  Hell getting folks to stay and break down the bays can be an issue at times.  

 

Our local MDs run good stages becuase they reach out to good/invested shooters and ask for stage design.  Everyone should be doing this and I'm more than willing to bet people who are into this sport will help out as having good stages at your local match makes it a better match for you as a shooter. 

[BritinUSA]

Stage design at L1 matches can make or break divisions. If every stage has 8-shot arrays and 32 rounds then lo-cap shooters are going to either drift away or switch to hi-cap divisions.

 

As more people jump to hi-cap, so more stages will represent that dynamic and lo-cap divisions will drop even further.

[sc68cal]

On 7/14/2023 at 6:17 PM, shred said:

Locaps are partly dead because when CO took off, stage designers and builders blew off 1.2.1 "8 rounds per view" with some lame "well you could shoot those targets from 20 yards further back if you want, so 14 rounds from that one spot is fine" or "there's the edge of a wall between them... different 'view'" and nonsense like that.

22 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

Stage design at L1 matches can make or break divisions. If every stage has 8-shot arrays and 32 rounds then lo-cap shooters are going to either drift away or switch to hi-cap divisions.

  

I 100% believe that these two tendencies at local club matches were the cause of production and other low-cap divisions dying. I shot a match in a 10-round state, with Single Stack (major) and even though the maximum capacity was 10+1 versus my 8+1, there were stages where if you went 1-for-1 on steel and then used your two extra shots on an optional target, you could save a position and really pick up some time, and you still had a make up round just in case. There were stages that you had a view of some targets, twice, but it was really stretching. I think also the fact that the majority of the shooters and the people who run the match are shooting CO, it really drives stage design to be more difficult since the top shooters are running dots, and it just leaves iron sight shooters with very difficult target presentations and no real feeling of reward since they're just trying to keep up. I didn't go back to that club, haven't gone back to that state, and haven't shot SS major since.

 

It's frustrating because if we just had good medium course designs and there wasn't the pressure of "well, people want to shoot, so let's do 5 32 round field courses and a classifier for our club match" I think it would be a different. Ideally, take one bay and break it into two 16 round medium courses. The risk is it'll slow down match flow, but I think it would be worth doing.

Edited July 16, 2023 by sc68cal

[shred]

Seen it several times over the years as pistol tech and divisions change.  Be it "revo neutral", 28-round Open guns, STI .40s in Limited, Production getting big, CO moving to 140s, Dots taking over, ...  Stages reflect whatever the MD and setup crew mostly shoot.

 

IMO that's not intentional, they're just not paying much attention because it's not a thing for them, and there's plenty of other things to be concerned about, but it cycles around to the competitors choices too.

[whan]

Back to major/minor vs minor-only LO, I do think that regardless of our opinions and the survey, I'd bet that the Board decides to keep LO as minor only. I think that USPSA wants to replicate the success of CO, and minor LO is obviously the closest thing to it (despite it of course causing overlap issues between the divisions in current state)

 

It's also interesting seeing quite a few notable GMs / super squad GMs that are starting to get sponsored LO 9mm builds, in addition to the builders making specific LO-spec builds (Masterpiece Arms DS9LOC, Nighthawk BDS9, Vudoo Gunworks, Akai Freedom LO). Also add in the increasing number of Atlas Athenas and slide-ride 9mm Infinities it looks like are being sold/made. The fact that people are already starting to make real financial investments into it as a provisional 9mm division makes me think that the momentum may have already reached a point of no return, as far as making a change to major PF

Edited July 16, 2023 by whan

[-JCN-]

On 7/13/2023 at 12:12 PM, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Do they hold up with wheel guns? My S&W 929 can't shoot some factory target ammo (federal for example) because the recoil impulse shakes the bullets out of the brass. 

I haven’t noticed any issues. Using an SRO but I’ll likely change over to a Holosun 507comp due to lower deck height to reduce height over bore. 
 

I shoot wimpy 9mm though. 

[-JCN-]

18 hours ago, sc68cal said:

  

I 100% believe that these two tendencies at local club matches were the cause of production and other low-cap divisions dying. I shot a match in a 10-round state, with Single Stack (major) and even though the maximum capacity was 10+1 versus my 8+1, there were stages where if you went 1-for-1 on steel and then used your two extra shots on an optional target, you could save a position and really pick up some time, and you still had a make up round just in case. There were stages that you had a view of some targets, twice, but it was really stretching. I think also the fact that the majority of the shooters and the people who run the match are shooting CO, it really drives stage design to be more difficult since the top shooters are running dots, and it just leaves iron sight shooters with very difficult target presentations and no real feeling of reward since they're just trying to keep up. I didn't go back to that club, haven't gone back to that state, and haven't shot SS major since.

 

It's frustrating because if we just had good medium course designs and there wasn't the pressure of "well, people want to shoot, so let's do 5 32 round field courses and a classifier for our club match" I think it would be a different. Ideally, take one bay and break it into two 16 round medium courses. The risk is it'll slow down match flow, but I think it would be worth doing.

I’ve enjoyed shooting IDPA for that reason as a change of flavor now and then. The stages are very much built around a 10+1 capacity and that’s a fun challenge sometimes. 

[motosapiens]

On 7/12/2023 at 12:38 PM, OpenshooterMclass4lyfe said:

It’s dying because people don’t care to shoot it anymore.  The cost of reloading components and the cost of the guns is why it’s dying.  It has nothing to do with being wussified.   

I suspect major is not really dying, but for sure alot of limited shooters decided to check out CO. Many of them will eventually be back to Limited because iron sights offers different fundamental challenges that are interesting to many people.

 

I do think however that there is a tendency for people to be bigger and bigger pansies as technology marches on. Many people ride scooters instead of motorcycles, everyone wants a self-driving car with an automatic transmission, people can't even change their own oil anymore and take it to the dealer, young men claim to have gender dysphoria, etc....  Hopefully it will take a long time for those trends to completely wipe out limited division.

[Racinready300ex]

I think it's dying, at least in the form of limited. When I hear CO shooters talk about switching divisions it's not go back to Limited, it's typically they want to try open and really go fast. 

[BMSMB]

On 7/11/2023 at 2:35 PM, NoahBeretta said:

I see Whan's post as a near perfect division setup, but I would have a 30 or 35ish ounce weight limit in CO and Production. Weight matters more than trigger. 

Are you trying to limit them to polymer guns?

 

My SP-01 milled for a dot is 38 ounces without a magazine.

[Dazhi]

Mass produced guns are different than custom handmade guns. 

 

Among the mass produced guns, trigger and weight do matter, probably equally important, but what really sets each other apart is aftermarket support.  People shooting mass produced guns cannot help wanting to "enhance" theirs by swapping in parts to fit their hands/preferences better.   At some point, it can get close to custom handmade guns.   There was precedence of creating divisions by weights, e.g. "Production Optics Light" that IPSC just killed. 

 

IMO the old 45oz rule is pretty balanced for Production/CO.  It's funny someone who shoots a Shadow 2 with brass everything picked up my Stock 2 at the nationals and was shocked how light it is.  Mine weighs 43.x oz with an empty 140mm mag.  I guess people really pushed towards the 59oz limit and the general public assumes every single metal gun weighs 55+oz.   

[NoahBeretta]

On 7/19/2023 at 11:00 AM, BMSMB said:

Are you trying to limit them to polymer guns?

 

My SP-01 milled for a dot is 38 ounces without a magazine.

Yes- 40 plus ounce guns fit nicely in Limited Optics. 

[RJH]

Results are out, the people have spoken and they want 15 rounds

[echotango]

.

Edited August 9, 2023 by echotango

[IHAVEGAS]

1 hour ago, RJH said:

Results are out, the people have spoken and they want 15 rounds

 

If you don't mind, where can the results be found? 

[RJH]

10 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

If you don't mind, where can the results be found? 

 

There were links to them on the USPSA Facebook page

[Racinready300ex]

Anyone ask their AD if they're going to vote on Prod-15?

[whan]

Key Results (topics of most discussion on the forums)

• LO minor only vs. major/minor for people who have shot it already: 45% to 30% (25% responded N/A)
• LO minor only vs. major/minor for people who haven't: 43% to 30% (27% responded N/A)
• Production 15 rounds: 64% yes to 36% no
• L10 Optics: 59% no to 41% yes

[IHAVEGAS]

8 minutes ago, whan said:

Key Results (topics of most discussion on the forums)

• LO minor only vs. major/minor for people who have shot it already: 45% to 30% (25% responded N/A)
• LO minor only vs. major/minor for people who haven't: 43% to 30% (27% responded N/A)
• Production 15 rounds: 64% yes to 36% no
• L

 

Wish they would have asked p15 for people who currently shoot production like they did for the LO questions. Just curiosity. 

 

Edited August 9, 2023 by IHAVEGAS

[Racinready300ex]

40 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Wish they would have asked p15 for people who currently shoot production like they did for the LO questions. Just curiosity. 

 

 

Probably worth asking if you would be more likely to shoot it after the change too. But, with 72% saying the capacity should go up is pretty telling I think. 

 

 

I was also surprised that only half the members want to nuke L10. Consider it's only 1% of the activity and even that number is inflated. If that level of participation is acceptable there really is no limit to how many divisions we should have. 

[RJH]

7 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Probably worth asking if you would be more likely to shoot it after the change too. But, with 72% saying the capacity should go up is pretty telling I think. 

 

 

I was also surprised that only half the members want to nuke L10. Consider it's only 1% of the activity and even that number is inflated. If that level of participation is acceptable there really is no limit to how many divisions we should have. 

 

My takeaways were:

 

15 for production

 

Leave LO as is

 

Keep the legacy division of L10 pure

[Joe4d]

Survey shoulda asked..
1. Should USPSA leadership pull head out of rectum and create/ modify a division that favors a basic service 9mm loaded to capacity ?

 

[IHAVEGAS]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

But, with 72% saying the capacity should go up is pretty telling I think. 

 

The other poster said 64%. Doesn't really matter though, just being ocd. 

[Racinready300ex]

17 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

The other poster said 64%. Doesn't really matter though, just being ocd. 

 

72.5% said we should change it to something other than 10

 

64.4% said change it to 15. 

 

If that helps your OCD. That's why I said specifically 72% want to change it but I didn't mention what they wanted to change it too. The only question left might be will the guys that only voted for the fit the box option settle for 15? Most likely they would.