New USPSA Survey

[echotango]

Who writes these things????  

 

Would you like vote to not have to have 10 rounds?

 

Pretty much how most questions are written.

Edited July 11, 2023 by echotango

[Racinready300ex]

Nuke L10, increase Prod capacity. Let's gooo

[ColoradoNick]

Nuke L10, production to 15 round, and LO minor only. Let .40 die. 

Edited July 11, 2023 by ColoradoNick

[YVK]

56 minutes ago, echotango said:

Who writes these things????  

 

Would you like vote to not have to have 10 rounds?

 

Pretty much how most questions are written.

 

 

Yup. My favorite was the lim ops' last question.

No different than the last time around. There's a reason why professional surveys are collected by professionals in data collection. 

[whan]

Generally the same sentiment as others - production to 15 round (and also CO for that matter), LO minor only. Production capacity being limited by box size is dumb as it'd favor certain guns with slightly more advantageous dimensions. IE low bore axis striker fired guns with steeper grip angles (IE glock) could fit in more rounds than hammer fired shallower grip angle guns (IE Beretta)

 

Having experience being from a compliance state, I actually wouldn't nuke L10 and instead would just treat it as a compliance division catch-all that allows for optional optics. Kill/Roll Single Stack into it as well and make it minor-10/major-8. 

Edited July 11, 2023 by whan

[Dazhi]

Neither this nor the last surveys about Production capacity has the 140mm option.  I wonder why.

[Racinready300ex]

4 minutes ago, Dazhi said:

Neither this nor the last surveys about Production capacity has the 140mm option.  I wonder why.

 

I noticed that too....are they scared of it? It's a valid option. I think I like 15 or fit in box better but 140 isn't crazy either.

[shred]

Nor did they ask about any changes to CO...

 

140mm instantly kills the 'noob' and 'factory' factors for the division.    Very few outside of USPSA have 140s out of the box.

 

[ddc]

1 hour ago, echotango said:

Who writes these things????  

 

Would you like vote to not have to have 10 rounds?

 

Pretty much how most questions are written.

 

I swear they must hire a 7th grader to write these surveys. There is no coherent logic to the sequence of questions. 

[whan]

15 minutes ago, Dazhi said:

Neither this nor the last surveys about Production capacity has the 140mm option.  I wonder why.

 

Probably because in hindsight allowing CO to go to 140mm mags from 10 rounds may have been a step too far, at least in the context of Prod/CO originally being designed to allow relatively accessible out of the box factory equipment to be successful. IMO 140mm mags are a pretty specialized race equipment, particularly with non-lockback followers to max out capacity

 

I do think there's space for more of a true factory gun division (both irons and optics) particularly with LO now being a thing. 15 rounds fits best with that ethos, allowing essentially any out of the box gun to be competitive. A top shooter could theoretically buy a new Glock 17, Holosun, and a few extra mags from the local gunstore and win the next day in CO with a 15 round capacity. Whereas right now, the 23-24rd 140mm basepads are mandatory to win. 

 

Ultimately I think the below would be ideal for a new set of divisions. You can also the nationals per the below as well, as I think stage designs can be well tailored for each pair. Otherwise something like this year's iron sight nationals will be interesting to see if they can actually make it good for both Limited and Revo shooters...

 

Low-Cap Divisions

• Revolver, scored major with minor ammo, since no one even shoots major PF
• L10 w/ Optional Optics, and 10rd minor/8rd major

 

Factory Gun Divisions

• Production, 15 rounds, current box 
• Carry Optics, 15 rounds, production box with optics cutout, will make slide-stop thumb rests not fit with the door closed

 

Limited Gun Divisions

• Limited. Major/Minor is fine to keep to help with some competitive parity vs. LO, but don't feel strongly
• Limited Optics. Minor only, otherwise just provisional rules

 

High-Cap Divisions

• Open. As is
• PCC. As is

Edited July 11, 2023 by whan

[stick]

Where is this survey?

[NoahBeretta]

I see Whan's post as a near perfect division setup, but I would have a 30 or 35ish ounce weight limit in CO and Production. Weight matters more than trigger. 

Edited July 11, 2023 by NoahBeretta
Clarity

[sandflea316]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

Nuke L10, increase Prod capacity. Let's gooo

Yep, but I say LO should have major/minor scoring

Edited July 11, 2023 by sandflea316

[OpenshooterMclass4lyfe]

11 minutes ago, sandflea316 said:

Yep, but I say LO should have major/minor scoring

If it has major and minor everyone will shoot major except for a small minority.  Having 4 rounds extra in a mag isn’t worth shooting minor imo.     The whole division was built on the idea of these goobers with 2011s in 9mm to have a division to shoot in that wasn’t open.   

[Dazhi]

1 hour ago, whan said:

 

Probably because in hindsight allowing CO to go to 140mm mags from 10 rounds may have been a step too far, at least in the context of Prod/CO originally being designed to allow relatively accessible out of the box factory equipment to be successful. IMO 140mm mags are a pretty specialized race equipment, particularly with non-lockback followers to max out capacity

 

If this is really what people think, I wonder why there has been no survey of changing CO to 15 round.  That would go nicely with Prod 15, and provide more space for LO to grow. 

[MadBomber]

Major/Minor scoring should be allowed in every division.  DVC.  Accuracy, POWER, speed.  If you can't handle major, stay on the porch with the puppies.

[OpenshooterMclass4lyfe]

Just now, MadBomber said:

Major/Minor scoring should be allowed in every division.  DVC.  Accuracy, POWER, speed.  If you can't handle major, stay on the porch with the puppies.

Interesting seeing how major is dying all the way across the board.   

[whan]

32 minutes ago, Dazhi said:

 

If this is really what people think, I wonder why there has been no survey of changing CO to 15 round.  That would go nicely with Prod 15, and provide more space for LO to grow. 

 

That's a good question, I think it's partially because they view the decline in production participation as more of an issue vs. the overlap between CO and LO at this point. But if prod goes to 15, and LO stays as a minor-only division, I think they'd have to address changing CO to 15 rounds as well next

 

21 minutes ago, OpenshooterMclass4lyfe said:

Interesting seeing how major is dying all the way across the board.   

 

I've actually been seeing an interesting trend at my local club (large club with 125-150 shooters per match). A lot of limited optics participation is actually coming from open shooters moving over, vs. CO shooters jumping into LO. I don't know what it means quite yet, but if the trend does continue it actually does provide a significant argument for killing major power factor, as open is the main division IMO keeping the overall concept of major PF alive. I doubt that'd happen anytime soon however

[shred]

Anyone that hasn't shot a lot of Major PF doesn't understand that it provides opportunities and shooting styles that minor just doesn't.

 

They are usually the ones clamoring to get rid of Major scoring.

 

[shred]

56 minutes ago, Dazhi said:

 

If this is really what people think, I wonder why there has been no survey of changing CO to 15 round.  That would go nicely with Prod 15, and provide more space for LO to grow. 

"Don't ask a question you don't want the answer to", maybe?  The PTB seem to think CO is perfect as-is because success.

 

[outerlimits]

if major is scrapped, the board needs to be paraded over a cliff.  

[OpenshooterMclass4lyfe]

51 minutes ago, shred said:

Anyone that hasn't shot a lot of Major PF doesn't understand that it provides opportunities and shooting styles that minor just doesn't.

 

They are usually the ones clamoring to get rid of Major scoring.

 

I’ve been shooting major for majority of my time in uspsa.  I couldn not care any less if they did away with it.   It’s already dying and chances are it won’t last now that LO is a thing. 

[Sarge]

3 hours ago, stick said:

Where is this survey?

I got an email from HQ. They also posted on FB

[sandflea316]

2 hours ago, OpenshooterMclass4lyfe said:

If it has major and minor everyone will shoot major except for a small minority.  Having 4 rounds extra in a mag isn’t worth shooting minor imo.     The whole division was built on the idea of these goobers with 2011s in 9mm to have a division to shoot in that wasn’t open.   

True but that didn't keep me from voting to change LO with major/minor scoring.

 

I've shot limited and open with minor plenty of times in the past so really it's not a big deal.

[whan]

I understand that major is a unique shooting style and is interesting in that context, but I think ultimately it will come down to what is popular / in demand. Fundamentally it seems there is the largest demand for higher capacity (at least >10rd) 9mm minor divisions with optics. The three most recent divisions (CO, PCC, provisional LO) have all gained popularity due to that format. At our most recent local match, those three divisions alone made up 67% of all shooters (45 CO, 33 PCC, 22 LO, of 150 total)

 

With the number of competitors shooting CO, there's obviously enough demand to try splitting it up to figure out which piece of the formula is driving it. Is it about capacity (is 15 rounds vs. 10 rounds enough to make a difference), the dot, or the loose ruleset for the gun that's essentially already pseudo-limited. Or some combination of those factors? One thing seems obvious to me, is that a format of high capacity, loose ruleset, and major PF is a losing combination (IE Limited Major). Our last local had 7 limited shooters out of 150, and even then 2/7 were minor. There were over twice as many production shooters.

 

For that reason, trying to make Limited Optics a Major scoring division isn't the smart play, and risks it being a somewhat dead division on arrival. LO barely has anyone to draw from Limited. New USPSA shooters are almost certainly not going to shoot major given current trends. Perhaps some Open shooters or CO shooters might jump, but that's taking a big gamble. They'd both have to set up with completely new ammo. Making LO minor only has a far bigger pool to draw from with CO crowd that likes the "open-lite" feel of the current CO ruleset. And if you shift CO to a more practical pistol with 15rd limits, that may keep the people who want to train with duty/HD type pistols or don't want to chase the latest gear (like thumbrests, brass grips, etc.)

Edited July 12, 2023 by whan