New USPSA Survey

[rishii]

1 hour ago, outerlimits said:

if major is scrapped, the board needs to be paraded over a cliff.  

i agree 100%

Limited Optics should be major/minor, just like limited and L10

minor only already has a home in production and CO

[whan]

Just for additional info, I went through and looked at the 22 LO shooters at our recent local, and what division they shot consistently most recently before provisional LO went into place. Below was the breakdown for the 22 LO shooters

 

• 8 from Open (top 4 LO shooters were all previously open shooters. Generally the better LO shooters previously shot Open)
• 9 from CO
• 1 from Limited
• 1 from PCC
• 3 N/A (unclassified, no USPSA #, or first match back in a while)

 

For those of you who want LO to be major/minor, what division do you shoot right now? If LO is major/minor, would you actually shoot LO as your main division? I feel like the people most vocal about making LO major/minor are those who currently shoot, or have Limited guns. But based off recent participation, that's a small division, and if those are the people making the switch, we'll just end up with very small / non-competitive L and LO divisions. If the goal is to have multiple healthy divisions, we need to be splitting up the CO shooters.

Edited July 12, 2023 by whan

[Boomstick303]

16 minutes ago, whan said:

I feel like the people most vocal about making LO major/minor are those who currently shoot, or have Limited guns.

 

Winner, Winner, Chicken Dinner!!

[Boomstick303]

 

5 hours ago, ddc said:

I swear they must hire a 7th grader to write these surveys. There is no coherent logic to the sequence of questions. 

 

The same person writing the RO, CRO exams obviously.

 

 

[Boomstick303]

 

2 hours ago, whan said:

I don't know what it means quite yet,

 

Ask some of them.  It most likely means there is a place to shoot guns like 2011s (SA Only guns) where on the whole the guns don't beat themselves to death.  I know a few open shooters that are over shooting open due to what it does to equipment.  A few have mentioned if CO was around when they started open the would have never went the open route.  Some indicated they may move and never buy another open gun and move to LO down the road.

 

With that said in our section I have not noted a bunch of Limited and/or Open shooters shooting LO.  Mostly CO folks.  

 

I really do not understand the organizations aversion to switching Mag Capacity of various divisions.  

 

 

[YVK]

36 minutes ago, whan said:

 

For those of you who want LO to be major/minor, what division do you shoot right now? If LO is major/minor, would you actually shoot LO as your main division? 

 

I shoot Carry Optics now and I'd shoot LO major either as my main, or at least in equal share. In their current forms, LO and CO do not have enough discriminating differences or added values.  Sure, metal 2011s with big ass magwells are easier to perform with but ultimately they are both slide mounted optics, practically unlimited weight, light triggers and equal mag capacity divisions. To add value and growth potential, they have to be different enough to matter. Either make LO major/minor, or take CO down to where "carry" in its name is not a joke (G19-ish size/weight/capacity, maybe even trigger weight). I am fine with either option.

And no, I never owned a Limited gun.

[JWBaldree]

I opened up the survey, intending to answer the L10 and Production ones. I haven't shot LO, so my input probably wouldn't be valid. I only answered one question for L10, and that was a Yes for kill the division. If one's state is capacity restricted, there is a rule for that, making L10 a dumb division that nobody shoots. I then moved on to the Production survey with great interest, where I answered zero questions because not one available answer mirrored my preference, which would be to mirror CO with 140 magazines, as that horse is long out of the barn.

 

As a former Production shooter, I'm not really seeing a huge advantage to 15rds, except for maybe some short and medium COFs. At best it is saving one reload per stage. 15 rounds means 2 reloads for a 32rd COF, instead of 3 reloads for 10 rounds. Whatever. I really don't mind reloads in stage planning. If USPSA is changing it, go with 140s.

 

USPSA membership needs to first answer two long term strategic questions: Does gun/action type really matter and is minor the wave of the future? The first one has been debated to death, and much like Ds vs Rs politically, there are some unwavering opinions. Personally, I could care less and will continue shooting CZs for everything, including steel and 3gun. The 75 frame just fits me. For me, the bigger question centers on the role of Minor. Personally, i would like to see minor PF raised to 140 or so, to mimic most production ammo. Yes I know the subcompacts won't make 140, but I don't care as the subcompacts all play over at IDPA and not at USPSA. Name the last subcompact you saw at a Level 2 or 3.

 

Having said all of that my divisions would simply be:

 

Open: major and minor, as is.                                                   PCC: as is. It is keeping a lot of old guys shooting matches.

Hi Cap Irons, basically LO without the dot. Minor only.         HI Cap Optics, basically LO as is. Minor only.                        

Lo cap Irons: 8rd major / 10 round minor.                               Lo Cap Optics: 8rd major / 10 round minor, slide mounted optic  

 

The above seems to cover all the bases and would simplify Nationals to 2 or 3 events. USPSA should also maintain Single Stack and Revolver rule sets for anyone that wants to hold a specialty match, but eliminate them from normal match divisions. Mi Dos Centavos, and worth every Peso you paid for it.

[ltdmstr]

58 minutes ago, whan said:

I feel like the people most vocal about making LO major/minor are those who currently shoot, or have Limited guns.

 

Not sure this has much to do with it.  Most people who shoot Limited, or Open for that matter, have expensive guns, but don't mind spending money on more guns if it makes sense to do so.  I have a full custom prodigy and am building a custom LO gun, even though I'll probably never shoot CO or LO.  I think the appeal of major pf is it adds another level of difficulty and requires a different style of shooting vs a dot and minor pf ammo.  The two are quite different, just like Limited v. Open.  The dot and minor pf combo makes for a plug and play experience which is very appealing to a lot of people, and particularly so to new shooters.

 

[cheby]

4 hours ago, OpenshooterMclass4lyfe said:

Interesting seeing how major is dying all the way across the board.   

If something is popular, it doesn’t automatically mean it’s good or right. 

[cheby]

25 minutes ago, YVK said:

 

I shoot Carry Optics now and I'd shoot LO major either as my main, or at least in equal share. In their current forms, LO and CO do not have enough discriminating differences or added values.  Sure, metal 2011s with big ass magwells are easier to perform with but ultimately they are both slide mounted optics, practically unlimited weight, light triggers and equal mag capacity divisions. To add value and growth potential, they have to be different enough to matter. Either make LO major/minor, or take CO down to where "carry" in its name is not a joke (G19-ish size/weight/capacity, maybe even trigger weight). I am fine with either option.

And no, I never owned a Limited gun.

This is 100% correct. Can’t agree more. 

[ltdmstr]

Same here.  Don't see how it makes sense to keep CO and LO in their current forms as there's no real difference between the two.

[whan]

34 minutes ago, YVK said:

 

I shoot Carry Optics now and I'd shoot LO major either as my main, or at least in equal share. In their current forms, LO and CO do not have enough discriminating differences or added values.  Sure, metal 2011s with big ass magwells are easier to perform with but ultimately they are both slide mounted optics, practically unlimited weight, light triggers and equal mag capacity divisions. To add value and growth potential, they have to be different enough to matter. Either make LO major/minor, or take CO down to where "carry" in its name is not a joke (G19-ish size/weight/capacity, maybe even trigger weight). I am fine with either option.

And no, I never owned a Limited gun.

 

I agree that LO and CO in their current forms are redundant. But based on the fact that you're also ok with changing CO to be more "Carry"-like, I believe that's the better option than making LO major/minor

 

23 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:

 

Not sure this has much to do with it.  Most people who shoot Limited, or Open for that matter, have expensive guns, but don't mind spending money on more guns if it makes sense to do so.  I have a full custom prodigy and am building a custom LO gun, even though I'll probably never shoot CO or LO.  I think the appeal of major pf is it adds another level of difficulty and requires a different style of shooting vs a dot and minor pf ammo.  The two are quite different, just like Limited v. Open.  The dot and minor pf combo makes for a plug and play experience which is very appealing to a lot of people, and particularly so to new shooters.

 

 

I don't disagree about the appeal of major pf requiring another style of shooting, but at the same time I don't know if it's a particularly popular style of shooting. The low participation in limited division seems to indicate that keeping the LO shooting experience as more "plug and play" via minor is the more popular decision

[ltdmstr]

As someone posted a while back, seems the best and simplest solution to all this would be four main divisions: 1) Optics/major, 2) Optics/minor, 3) Irons/major, 4) Irons/minor.

[BritinUSA]

43 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:

As someone posted a while back, seems the best and simplest solution to all this would be four main divisions: 1) Optics/major, 2) Optics/minor, 3) Irons/major, 4) Irons/minor.

I first posted this back in 2021 and was based on the original concepts of Prod/Prod Optics.

 

 

The Pros and Cons between rows complement each other, ie the Pros of Limited are the Cons of Production and vice-versa.

 

Top Row 

Pros

Highly Customizable

High Capacity Magazines

Major Scoring

 

Cons

High cost

Factory Ammunition options are limited

 

Bottom Row

Pros

Lower cost

Many options for Factory Ammo

 

Cons

Very Limited Customization

Low Capacity Magazines

Minor scoring

 

[louu]

There's about 13 states right now that are limited to 10 rounds and there will probably be more in the future. There are plenty of people in those states that do not want to break any laws and also shoot in other states. LEAVE LIMITED 10, PRODUCTION AND SINGLE STACK ALONE! 

Edited July 12, 2023 by louu

[IVC]

L10 is an anachronism and it needs to go.

 

First, the recent Supreme Court precedent will soon result in legal magazine capacity limits going away. Second, in states with limits and no grandfathering, everyone shooting any hi-cap division will be shooting the same, only 10 rounds. At least for the time being, until the limits are lifted by the courts. Third, in states with grandfathered hi-cap magazines, those with hi-caps will shoot Limited, not L10, so the guy shooting L10 will be an odd duck regardless. 

 

All the other divisions - whatever. The more the merrier. Most people anyways compare themselves to other "similar" divisions. Per-division, per-class and (ugh) per-category distinctions are silly, but don't hurt anyone. Those who care can slice it and dice it any way they want, and those who don't care will just look at the overall score anyways. 

 

Anyone celebrate getting "High C class, foreign senior, single stack local level 1 match champion?" 

[HI5-O]

I’m in one of those 10 round states and we don’t offer, in our club matches, the Limited 10 division because of USPSA rule 3.3.1 there’s no need. Limited is limited. 

We also shoot Open division with 10 round magazines and NO one here is demanding an Open 10 division.

I am for the removal of Limited 10 division. 
I am also for the increase in magazine capacity for Production. 

[IHAVEGAS]

8 hours ago, JWBaldree said:

As a former Production shooter, I'm not really seeing a huge advantage to 15rds, except for maybe some short and medium COFs. At best it is saving one reload per stage. 15 rounds means 2 reloads for a 32rd COF, instead of 3 reloads for 10 rounds.

 

That is not the way things work out. The fewer rounds you have the more rounds you leave in the magazines so that you do not have to risk a standing reload for a make up shot or run a plan that avoids the standing reload but costs time. Now and then it is only 2 or 4 shots & then swap mags so you are ready for that next group of targets when you get there. 

 

 

9 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

I really do not understand the organizations aversion to switching Mag Capacity of various divisions.  

 

It makes the game entirely different. If you enjoy the challenge of more intricate stage planning, hitting reloads slick, and not going to war with that challenging shot because you can't spare the make up shots, then you prefer low capacity. If you want to make things as easy as is possible then you prefer high capacity. 

I don't think there is a right way and a wrong way to enjoy the sport, but folks do definitely have their preferences. When I last shot limited instead of production I felt like I was cheating myself out of half of the fun of the game. 

[Racinready300ex]

6 hours ago, louu said:

There's about 13 states right now that are limited to 10 rounds and there will probably be more in the future. There are plenty of people in those states that do not want to break any laws and also shoot in other states. LEAVE LIMITED 10, PRODUCTION AND SINGLE STACK ALONE! 

 

 

I don't think that's correct. You're likely counting MD which can have any size mag we want. DE I think is limited to 17, isn't CO limited to 15 and even then no one enforces it. I'm not sure about the others. I think some of them have grandfather clauses and everyone still shoots hi-cap.

 

I just took a quick look at the match results up in Quinton NJ. Looks like the last match had 2 L10 shooters, the one before that only had 1. So even in a state like NJ L10 is a waste and needs to go. 

 

[zzt]

I don't see the benefit of 15 rounds for Production.  It really doesn't buy you anything.  If your mag fits in the box and holds 17, allow 17.  If 18, allow 18.  In short, allow load to capacity.  That buys you something.   I don't buy the argument it will set off an arms race like the changes to CO did.  So what.  If you believe a gun that holds 18 or 19 gives you a major advantage over one that holds 17, buy a new gun.

 

For USPSA I've shot Limited major, then Open major.  At one point my Open gun had to go back for warranty repair.  For the next few matches, I shot my 1911 Open gun I built for Steel Challenge.  Four mag changes on a long course.  No bigee.  The changes didn't cost me any time.  The only thing I noticed was it was much harder to take a 10-round 9mm mag apart for cleaning after it was dropped in dust.

[Racinready300ex]

9 minutes ago, zzt said:

I don't see the benefit of 15 rounds for Production.  It really doesn't buy you anything.  If your mag fits in the box and holds 17, allow 17.  If 18, allow 18.  In short, allow load to capacity.  That buys you something.   I don't buy the argument it will set off an arms race like the changes to CO did.  So what.  If you believe a gun that holds 18 or 19 gives you a major advantage over one that holds 17, buy a new gun.

 

 

I've shot matches with 15 round mags and it's not a massive change but it gives you options. I shot a match Monday night I did 8 reloads in 4 stages (Prod). With 15 round mags I'd of probably done it in 6. Not a massive difference but probably would of been just enough to get a fantasy division.

 

I'm fine with fit the box too, the draw back is then I'm probably going to "need" new base pads and springs and followers so my 18 round mags will hold 20-21 and fit the box. Where 15 rounds, pretty much any off the shelf 9mm can get a 15 rounds in the factory mags and nothing else is needed. We can pretend that 17 vs 21 doesn't matter, but 15 vs 15 there's no doubt. 

 

 

[Boomstick303]

2 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

When I last shot limited instead of production I felt like I was cheating myself out of half of the fun of the game.

 

I get that, and I am not advocating going to 140mm mags for production.  I think 15 rounds capacity would get more to shoot/stay in production.  I understand the love of some for 10 round capacity for production, but who exactly are they shooting against?  Next to no one is shooting production and other low cap divisions.  Its like showing up to a match shooting a revolver.  He wins upon arrival because he is the only one shooting that division usually.  

 

 

[Racinready300ex]

16 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

I get that, and I am not advocating going to 140mm mags for production.  I think 15 rounds capacity would get more to shoot/stay in production.  I understand the love of some for 10 round capacity for production, but who exactly are they shooting against?  Next to no one is shooting production and other low cap divisions.  Its like showing up to a match shooting a revolver.  He wins upon arrival because he is the only one shooting that division usually.  

 

 

 

15 does seem like it's a nice middle ground. You're still reloading regularly but it opens up some options and allows for some risk/reward planning. So the handful of diehard 10 round guys shouldn't freak out to much, while maybe enticing others to play in the division if it's more relevant.  

[Boomstick303]

4 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

15 does seem like it's a nice middle ground.

 

I honestly think that 98% of the membership is on this boat.  The weird thing as mentioned previously in this thread, this thought seems to be completely ignored by the organization.  For what reason exactly?

 

It is unfortunate more do not the like the 10 round capacity game.  While it is not my cup of tea, I am amazed from time to time on watching good to exceptional production, single stack and revolver shooter stage plans to figure out the puzzle.  Occasionally it makes me look at a stage differently as a high capacity shooter.  

 

[APL-G35]

USPSA needs to cut divisions and do something to seperate what we have now.

 

Open as is

Lim as is

PCC as is

CO/LO combine and make 15 rounds

Locap = SS, Prod Revo, L10  10 round Minor 8 round Major 

 

Run 3 Nationals a year.  Open/PCC/Lim

                                         CO/LO

                                         LoCap