New USPSA Survey

[shred]

There's no shortage of factory 9 ammo that makes 135 or 140 and you'd pick a PF number to match.  Wouldn't be long before the Syntech's and Eley's of the world started making special ammo anyway as it would be well within SAAMI pressure levels.  Nobody chronos at local matches so you'd only care if you went to a major.

 

My "mid" 5-4-1 scheme leaves Minor in place for people that just want to shoot 125 PF and Major in place for people that want; nothing changes with those.

 

For more historical context, 125 PF is left over from when people wanted to shoot snubby 38 Special revolvers in USPSA.  Why are we still hanging onto that baggage?

 

[YVK]

I've been shooting factory 9mm only since I joined 9 years ago. In standard non +P loads the closest to 140 is 147 AE that on paper is 1000 fps. In reality their bullets are often are sub 147 and velocities are sub 1000 leaving a very little margin, if any, over 140. I have shot a lot of it and never chronoed over 143. In addition it costs 30% more than similar quality 115 or 124 ammo. So, yep, making minor pf 140 would severely limit commercial ammo options and will cull the herd.

[shred]

For the first six months maybe...ammo makers respond to demand.  Could be 138 (Winchester White Box 115gr) or whatever for all I care-- something standard 9 loads make, not poofter loads to emulate the ballistics of a .38 Special snubby.

 

Plus who chronos at a club match?

[Racinready300ex]

28 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

Not really.  It would only force minor shooters to use factory 147s, many of which are 144 PF.

 

I like the idea of moving minor into spicier ammo, but I'm not sure how practical it is when you consider this issue. We might be able to bump it to 130 without as much issue, maybe 135?? But 140 might cause issue. We'd really need to figure out exactly how many commercial ammos will fail at any given PF. Minor IMO should reflect the ammo people are buying a shooting outside of our game. And it's typically a little spicier than what we use.

 

On the ground what would really happen is just like now no one checks ammo at the club level. The main difference is that currently most people are probably legal and in that situation most people will really be sub minor. And then when they go to a major and get checked they'll be surprised their shooting for no score. 

 

Is that on the shooter who doesn't check his ammo? Or is on clubs across the country for not enforcing rules? Or on the org for making rules that can't be enforced and are easy to break without knowing?

 

 

[Racinready300ex]

2 minutes ago, shred said:

For the first six months maybe...ammo makers respond to demand.  Could be 138 for all I care-- something standard 9 loads make, not poofter loads to emulate the ballistics of a .38 Special snubby.

 

 

 

That seems unlikely to me. Sure maybe the fancy stuff that's made for uspsa. But I don't think off the shelf stuff that people pickup at their local store before a match will change because of USPSA.

 

 

But I agree, 125 seems to low IMO

Edited July 14, 2023 by Racinready300ex

[shred]

The rules are without a chrono, use the competitors declared PF.  No rules being broken. 

 

Good clubs break out the club chrono or someone brings one just before a major so their peeps can check, but it's rarely in the match itself.

 

WWB 115gr is 138 PF.  Most of the Euro (S&B, Fiocchi) 115grs are at 1200+.  American Eagle 124 is 140+ PF.

 

 

 

 

[RJH]

38 minutes ago, shred said:

The rules are without a chrono, use the competitors declared PF.  No rules being broken. 

 

Good clubs break out the club chrono or someone brings one just before a major so their peeps can check, but it's rarely in the match itself.

 

WWB 115gr is 138 PF.  Most of the Euro (S&B, Fiocchi) 115grs are at 1200+.  American Eagle 124 is 140+ PF.

 

 

 

 

Are all these velocities out of a Glock 17?

[Racinready300ex]

25 minutes ago, shred said:

The rules are without a chrono, use the competitors declared PF.  No rules being broken. 

 

Maybe I didn't word that the best. The point was just that I've never in 10 years seen a chrono at a club match. I've only shot club matches at 7-8 clubs in 5 states which is a small sample. 

 

Lots of people just go to majors assuming what they used locally is okay. Sometimes people get bit for it. Going to 140 PF will undoubtedly mean more people get bitten at majors and that less people at local matches are shooting legal ammo. 

 

Now 130-135 seems more reasonable. I'd likely load 5 over to be safe which would be inline with more factory ammo. I'm on board with the idea to raise it, it's just a matter of picking a number. I'd lean toward 135 unit I could find more data on factory ammo offerings.  

 

 

[RJH]

1 minute ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Maybe I didn't word that the best. The point was just that I've never in 10 years seen a chrono at a club match. I've only shot club matches at 7-8 clubs in 5 states which is a small sample. 

 

Lots of people just go to majors assuming what they used locally is okay. Sometimes people get bit for it. Going to 140 PF will undoubtedly mean more people get bitten at majors and that less people at local matches are shooting legal ammo. 

 

Now 130-135 seems more reasonable. I'd likely load 5 over to be safe which would be inline with more factory ammo. I'm on board with the idea to raise it, it's just a matter of picking a number. I'd lean toward 135 unit I could find more data on factory ammo offerings.  

 

 

 

I was at a major match once and the guy was shooting a Glock 22 with factory 180 grain ammo, I don't remember the brand, and chrono'd 164 point something power factor. It was not match ammo, so he was shooting minor

[YVK]

49 minutes ago, shred said:

For the first six months maybe...ammo makers respond to demand.  Could be 138 (Winchester White Box 115gr) or whatever for all I care-- something standard 9 loads make, not poofter loads to emulate the ballistics of a .38 Special snubby.

 

Plus who chronos at a club match?

 

Ammo makers are selling everything they make as is. Major brands would not change their manufacturing to cater to needs of some five thousand people who shoot uspsa regularly. Boutique makers would but they will charge accordingly. If you exclude a bulk of available over the counter ammo, you limit the access to the sport.

 

Chrono or not chrono is a different. We still give our mates an implied promise that we're competing fairly, local or not, and that our ammo meets minimum standards. 

 

 

Edited July 14, 2023 by YVK

[Racinready300ex]

3 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

I was at a major match once and the guy was shooting a Glock 22 with factory 180 grain ammo, I don't remember the brand, and chrono'd 164 point something power factor. It was not match ammo, so he was shooting minor

 

Oof. And if he had a G35 he'd probably of been good. Hell, it's possible just a different 22 could have a little faster barrel. I think if we were to consider upping the PF wiggle room needs to be a consideration for sure. 

 

I think IDPA used to have a rule were if you failed chrono and your barrel was short you could ask to run your ammo through another legal gun with a longer barrel. Maybe that could be considered. Someone running a shorter gun isn't magically making their gun easier to shoot just because it chrono's lower. Just make that a option for that 8th round maybe. 

 

I know my gamer ammo is going 890 out of my rival for about 131.7 PF and 855 out of my 4" Mete SF for only 126.7 PF. The Mete certainly isn't easier to shoot just because the PF is lower. I think this is why IDPA dropped the PF for CCP division, lots of people had trouble making 125 pf out of the shorter guns. Going to 140 PF would make my Mete pretty impossible to buy ammo for. 

[BritinUSA]

I think moving the PF for Minor is going to produce problems. Minor divisions now account for the bulk of competitors not only in USPSA but IPSC as well, so this would represent a significant impact to a huge number of people.

[mikeg1005]

On 7/11/2023 at 7:58 PM, sandflea316 said:

I've shot limited and open with minor plenty of times in the past so really it's not a big deal.

 

And you beat all the major pf shooters right? 

[mikeg1005]

Getting rid of L10 is strictly a symbolic move... it already doesn't exist and there are several level 3s each year that don't even recognize it as a division.  

 

Production is dead... making it 15rds or 140mm won't change anything.

 

Limited Optics should be major/minor... if not then don't call it Limited Optics... call it 'division for 2011s because CO shooters are scared of single action triggers' or something along those lines. 

[Racinready300ex]

@mikeg1005 I agree Prod as it is, is dead. But increasing the capacity will change things. I'm not saying it'll suddenly overtake CO or anything like that. But, based on the data we've seen it'll nerf Limited participation so we have a better idea of the real Limited activity. And that would certainly boost Production, likely to be back in front of Limited. 

 

If LO remains unchanged as a minor only division the CO is dead too, it just doesn't know it yet. Making it major minor might be a good way to save CO in the long run.

[mikeg1005]

3 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

@mikeg1005 I agree Prod as it is, is dead. But increasing the capacity will change things. I'm not saying it'll suddenly overtake CO or anything like that. But, based on the data we've seen it'll nerf Limited participation so we have a better idea of the real Limited activity. And that would certainly boost Production, likely to be back in front of Limited. 

 

If LO remains unchanged as a minor only division the CO is dead too, it just doesn't know it yet. Making it major minor might be a good way to save CO in the long run.

 

I don't think it will matter... the allure of 15rds vs. 140mm and a dot isn't that great.  Low cap regardless of how you slice it is dead in USPSA.  You make an interesting point about LO poaching CO... thats why they should have just made LO, SAO, since that is the reason it was created. 

[Racinready300ex]

20 minutes ago, mikeg1005 said:

 

I don't think it will matter... the allure of 15rds vs. 140mm and a dot isn't that great.  Low cap regardless of how you slice it is dead in USPSA.  You make an interesting point about LO poaching CO... thats why they should have just made LO, SAO, since that is the reason it was created. 

 

I agree that lo-cap is dead. No doubt. That's why I support increasing the capacity of production to make it a more viable division that people will actually shoot. It was intended to be a division where you could just buy a gun and go shoot it. But now those guys get pushed into limited, so lets make production do what it was meant to do in the first place and reflect the guns people are currently buying.

 

The majority of people have and want to shoot standard capacity 9mm handguns. I don't think at this point it really matters to them if it has a optic or not. Everyone get's the optic because it's the only real option they have to shoot the gun they want to shoot. 

[sandflea316]

125pf is a joke.   Not really practical.  If 140 isn't feasible than 130-135

[sandflea316]

2 hours ago, mikeg1005 said:

 

And you beat all the major pf shooters right? 

Nope but I knew that going in.  I had a choice to either just used my open/limited major gun or use my minor gun.  I decided to use my minor gun.  Again no big deal.

 

[cheby]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

If LO remains unchanged as a minor only division the CO is dead too, it just doesn't know it yet. Making it major minor might be a good way to save CO in the long run.

I think I agree with that

[ltdmstr]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

If LO remains unchanged as a minor only division then CO is dead too, it just doesn't know it yet. Making it major minor might be a good way to save CO in the long run.

 

Yep.  There's no point in keeping both CO and LO in their current forms.  Either do something to further differentiate them or combine them.

[shred]

Locaps are partly dead because when CO took off, stage designers and builders blew off 1.2.1 "8 rounds per view" with some lame "well you could shoot those targets from 20 yards further back if you want, so 14 rounds from that one spot is fine" or "there's the edge of a wall between them... different 'view'" and nonsense like that.

 

When Production was huge there was a lot more attention paid to making the stages reasonable for a 10 round gun.

 

[konkapot]

40 minutes ago, shred said:

Locaps are partly dead because when CO took off, stage designers and builders blew off 1.2.1 "8 rounds per view" with some lame "well you could shoot those targets from 20 yards further back if you want, so 14 rounds from that one spot is fine" or "there's the edge of a wall between them... different 'view'" and nonsense like that.

 

When Production was huge there was a lot more attention paid to making the stages reasonable for a 10 round gun.

 

Yeah what this guy said. 100%. 

[mikeg1005]

3 hours ago, sandflea316 said:

Nope but I knew that going in.  I had a choice to either just used my open/limited major gun or use my minor gun.  I decided to use my minor gun.  Again no big deal.

 

 

I mean.. thats fine but intentionally not being competitive and using it as a reason to justify it as 'ok' in a competitive sport is flawed.  

[mikeg1005]

1 hour ago, shred said:

Locaps are partly dead because when CO took off, stage designers and builders blew off 1.2.1 "8 rounds per view" with some lame "well you could shoot those targets from 20 yards further back if you want, so 14 rounds from that one spot is fine" or "there's the edge of a wall between them... different 'view'" and nonsense like that.

 

When Production was huge there was a lot more attention paid to making the stages reasonable for a 10 round gun.

 

 

To be fair... people need to call this s#!t out at their local matches... trash stage designers existed way way before CO was even talked about.  Illegal stages suck for all divisons IMHO... being able to stand and shoot 16-18rds in limited isn't 'fun' either and really screws over shooters who eventually go to major matches and learn what 'real' stages are like.