New USPSA Survey

[Southpaw]

Results are here, bottom 3:  https://uspsa.org/surveys/results

 

I think more people voted to keep L10 than number of people who actually shoot L10

 

15 is better than 10, but I don't think it'll be enough to drive people back to Production.

[RIIID]

The number people should be talking about is the number of people who actually took the survey. If the bod uses any of these numbers to change things would be totally irresponsible.

Rich

[truespode]

22 minutes ago, RIIID said:

The number people should be talking about is the number of people who actually took the survey. If the bod uses any of these numbers to change things would be totally irresponsible.

Rich

 

Why is that? Because of the percentage of those that took the survey vs members is low?

[Racinready300ex]

48 minutes ago, RIIID said:

The number people should be talking about is the number of people who actually took the survey. If the bod uses any of these numbers to change things would be totally irresponsible.

Rich

 

I'm assuming you mean because a low % of the membership took the survey it doesn't mean anything. If so I disagree

 

The people who take the time to answer the surveys are probably the same people who take the time to vote and actually care about what's going on with in the organization. If people can't be bothered to do those things and just want to shoot then they can shoot based on what those of who care decide. 

 

 

[truespode]

31 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

The people who take the time to answer the surveys are probably the same people who take the time to vote and actually care about what's going on with in the organization. If people can't be bothered to do those things and just want to shoot then they can shoot based on what those of who care decide. 

 

 

^^^This^^^

 

I agree.
 

A lot of people complain and point to low turnout but nobody can read minds. The best that can be done is to get the feedback from those who care enough to engage.

[IHAVEGAS]

9 hours ago, Southpaw said:

15 is better than 10, but I don't think it'll be enough to drive people back to Production.

 

Will be interesting. I don't see the change adding 1 new member to USPSA, those few weirdos (me) among us that like to shoot low cap will be faced with a choice of switching to another division ($$$) or maybe just focusing more on IDPA. 

[Racinready300ex]

52 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Will be interesting. I don't see the change adding 1 new member to USPSA, those few weirdos (me) among us that like to shoot low cap will be faced with a choice of switching to another division ($$$) or maybe just focusing more on IDPA. 

 

I don't think anything we change really adds new member and doing it for that is a mistake. 

 

New members will come, if they want to because USPSA is fun. The divisions will just determine what they do once they get here. They'll likely start in Limited shooting minor with their production gun. The only logical option for most people is to put a optic on their gun and shoot CO. Hence the massive popularity of CO. Look at the new people at your club who've only been here a couple years. They're likely shooting CO. Look at the guys shooting 40 in Limited, they've probably been around a while. Similar with production guys if the club even has any. At this point so many people shoot CO, uspsa is just CO and everything else doesn't matter. 

 

A division for a high cap iron sight 9mm will give those people a second option. But, as someone said above 15 rounds maybe be to little to late to do much. Time will tell.

 

Will you really stop shooting USPSA to go to IDPA over a 5 round capacity increase in production? Also note IDPA's production division is also 15 rounds now. 

[shred]

15 makes it a lot easier to 'run what ya brung' for a while as a new shooter.   It also makes it a bit more fun for local match stages that ignore 1.2.1 because "everyone shoots CO these days".

 

Is it going to be a massive boost?  Not likely, but it will help keep PD somewhat relevant.

 

 

 

[IHAVEGAS]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

Will you really stop shooting USPSA to go to IDPA over a 5 round capacity increase in production? Also note IDPA's production division is also 15 rounds now. 

 

I will. I'm a lo cap guy and I don't want to go back to 1911's ($$$ and I like my CZ's) so I'll focus on IDPA (esp is still 10 +1) & quit paying USPSA dues & just shoot the one close local USPSA match as the mood strikes.

 

You can't run a club or make rules for the weirdo outliers like myself so it is all good, the club can do what they think is best & I shall do what is best for me. 

Edited August 10, 2023 by IHAVEGAS

[Racinready300ex]

9 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

I will. I'm a lo cap guy and I don't want to go back to 1911's ($$$ and I like my CZ's) so I'll focus on IDPA (esp is still 10 +1) & quit paying USPSA dues & just shoot the one close local USPSA match as the mood strikes.

 

You can't run a club or make rules for the weirdo outliers like myself so it is all good, the club can do what they think is best & I shall do what is best for me. 

 

Sounds like you don't shoot much anyway so don't forget L10 is still a thing too, you're CZ is legal there. Around here you could do just as well in L10 or production with the same gun. Every match I've shot in production I've won so far, and one time I wasn't the only guy. 

[Sarge]

52 minutes ago, shred said:

15 makes it a lot easier to 'run what ya brung' for a while as a new shooter.   It also makes it a bit more fun for local match stages that ignore 1.2.1 because "everyone shoots CO these days".

 

Is it going to be a massive boost?  Not likely, but it will help keep PD somewhat relevant.

 

 

 

How do clubs ignore 1.2.1? Stages are not legal if that happens no?

[IHAVEGAS]

5 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Sounds like you don't shoot much anyway so don't forget L10 is still a thing too, you're CZ is legal there. Around here you could do just as well in L10 or production with the same gun. Every match I've shot in production I've won so far, and one time I wasn't the only guy. 

 

If I was going to change divisions I would have more faith in USPSA holding on to single stack than L10. It is frustrating to put in the $ and get all of the bugs worked out and then see the game change. Agree that you could shoot 10 rd minor with your production gun versus any competition shooting limited guns & major. 

[truespode]

Just now, IHAVEGAS said:

I would have more faith in USPSA holding on to single stack than L10.

 

I think that no matter what the participation level is that Single Stack and Revolver should always remain a division. Those are the two most iconic pistol types ever. The historic movement from the introduction of each of those is undeniable and they set the foundational steps for everything else. 

 

Everything else can switch and change and everything until the Sun explodes and I don't really care. I like hicap optic 9mm whether it is CO or LO. But that doesn't change my mind on the importance of keeping the original foundations of pistols. Production is just a name. No-one outside the sport truly understands if it is production or what it is until it is explained. Limited is the same. But you say revolver and for the most part it is understood you shoot a wheel gun even if the caliber and reload equipment is far from the original Colt that made us all equal. Single Stack is just a name but mention 1911 and everyone understands unless they never had a gun before. I never heard of a 2011 until USPSA and most others didn't understand it when it was mentioned in John Wick but most gun owners knew what the Kimber was when it was just presented.

Ok... going off on a tangent.

[shred]

2 hours ago, Sarge said:

How do clubs ignore 1.2.1? Stages are not legal if that happens no?

 

The way a RMI blew off 2.1.4 at a Nationals "ehh... you do what you can".

or "it's the same for everybody".

or "it's just a local"

or "level 1 exception" (even though it isn't)

or "next time,, you set up".

or "don't come back if all you're going to do is bitch".

 

take your pick.  Sometimes they throw up a wall edge-on in the middle of an array to make it technically legal, or have a spot way uprange you could maybe engage some targets from, but really is still 14 rounds standing in the same spot.

 

Most of the time I don't think it's malicious, it's just that most everyone doing stage design / setup shoots hicaps and doesn't care much about that issue among the dozens of others they have to consider.  We went through this long ago when revolvers shot heads up to semi-autos and again when production took off. 

 

Theoretically stages can cater to everyone, but in reality they mostly cater to whatever the big divisions are.

 

[ltdmstr]

40 minutes ago, shred said:

 

Theoretically stages can cater to everyone, but in reality they mostly cater to whatever the big divisions are.

 

 

Yep.  Area 5 had one stage with something like 6 or 8 mini poppers at 20+ yards all partially obscured from different angles, a tuxedo at a tight angle around a wall at 15 or so, and a bobber behind hard cover at probably 25.  Try doing that with iron sights vs. a dot.

[Racinready300ex]

I've watched stage design shift. This are was heavy production so most likely if the stage designer wasn't shoot production someone helping build it probably was. Now almost no one shoots a 10 round division. So if you show up with one expect to do some standing reloads.

 

And I live in MD where we can't buy over 10 round mags in state, next door is Delaware with a 17 round limit and we get shooters from jersey too. Still the last local had 3 low cap shooters, all production and 2 of which I know are only shooting production to get classified before going to Production nationals. 

[shred]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

I've watched stage design shift. This are was heavy production so most likely if the stage designer wasn't shoot production someone helping build it probably was. Now almost no one shoots a 10 round division. So if you show up with one expect to do some standing reloads.

Do you think the stages were more, less, or about the same fun in those days?

 

[Joe4d]

1 hour ago, ltdmstr said:

 

Yep.  Area 5 had one stage with something like 6 or 8 mini poppers at 20+ yards all partially obscured from different angles, a tuxedo at a tight angle around a wall at 15 or so, and a bobber behind hard cover at probably 25.  Try doing that with iron sights vs. a dot.

"gasp" the humanity,,,, imagine shooting challenges at a shooting match... maybe slow down a bit ?

[MHicks]

8 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

"gasp" the humanity,,,, imagine shooting challenges at a shooting match... maybe slow down a bit ?

Sure. I like some challenging targets. But everyone, including you, has a line where it's too much, too many hard challenges. The dividing line is different for each shooter, but it's there. 

[twodownzero]

On 7/14/2023 at 5:43 PM, mikeg1005 said:

 

To be fair... people need to call this s#!t out at their local matches... trash stage designers existed way way before CO was even talked about.  Illegal stages suck for all divisons IMHO... being able to stand and shoot 16-18rds in limited isn't 'fun' either and really screws over shooters who eventually go to major matches and learn what 'real' stages are like.  

 

I called out my local club and they didn't care, so I quit and haven't come back after 18 years shooting USPSA and 14+ years a USPSA member.  If you want to have 20 round stand and shoots with no power factor, great, but that's not why I enjoyed playing this game.

 

They claimed the stage came from the nationals btw.  Which, if true, reinforces my point.  They stopped caring about the low cap divisions when carry optics took off.  Allowing dots outside of open ruined the sport and there's no putting the horse back into the barn.

Edited August 10, 2023 by twodownzero

[ltdmstr]

33 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

"gasp" the humanity,,,, imagine shooting challenges at a shooting match... maybe slow down a bit ?

 

20 minutes ago, MHicks said:

Sure. I like some challenging targets. But everyone, including you, has a line where it's too much, too many hard challenges. The dividing line is different for each shooter, but it's there. 

 

Not complaining about anything being too challenging, and doesn't really matter to me.  But, I can 100% shoot that stage faster with a dot gun and minor pf than with iron sights shooting major.  The point being, the stage design definitely favored the dot guns. 

[outerlimits]

5 minutes ago, twodownzero said:

 

I called out my local club and they didn't care, so I quit and haven't come back after 18 years shooting USPSA and 14+ years a USPSA member.  If you want to have 20 round stand and shoots with no power factor, great, but that's not why I enjoyed playing this game.

 

They claimed the stage came from the nationals btw.  Which, if true, reinforces my point.  They stopped caring about the low cap divisions when carry optics took off.  Allowing dots outside of open ruined the sport and there's no putting the horse back into the barn.

FIFY

 

Allowing dots and rifles outside of open ruined the sport and there's no putting the horse back into the barn.

[MHicks]

1 hour ago, ltdmstr said:

 

 

Not complaining about anything being too challenging, and doesn't really matter to me.  But, I can 100% shoot that stage faster with a dot gun and minor pf than with iron sights shooting major.  The point being, the stage design definitely favored the dot guns. 

 

I completely agree. Of course it would be easier with an optic. But even if everyone was shooting an optic there can come a point where the challenges are taken too far or too many on one stage. Where the consensus would be that it was a bad stage setup. And again, shooters have different judgements about where that line is crossed.

[BritinUSA]

Distance is not the only criteria for a difficult shot. Nor are partial targets. Sometimes a close wide open target can be a challenge if the shooter is trying to go too fast.

Edited August 10, 2023 by BritinUSA

[twodownzero]

16 hours ago, outerlimits said:

FIFY

 

Allowing dots and rifles outside of open ruined the sport and there's no putting the horse back into the barn.

 

Yes, allowing rifles at pistol matches played a big part in that as well, although I don't think stage design caters to them, in fact, I think it screws them over much of the time.  The dots outside of open and creating an open division with minor power factor only was basically the demise of USPSA.  At this point there is no reason for Open, Limited, L10, or Production to exist.  There's CO, LO, and a few people with rifles.