New USPSA Survey

[shred]

If L10 was really needed, we'd also need Open-10 and CO-10 and LO-10, and nobody is asking for any of those.

 

15 is more interesting, lets randos with factory mags and a couple pouches play (even w/.40 minor or .357 Sig or whatever floats their boat) and doesn't turn yet another division goat rodeo for the magic spring and followers to get one more round than the other guy.

 

 

 

[Joe4d]

19 hours ago, OpenshooterMclass4lyfe said:

Interesting seeing how major is dying all the way across the board.   

Its only dieing because new division rules have wussified everything.  There is no reward in all but open and Limited.
While a couple rounds in limited or open dont matter they make a difference at only 10 rounds.
So production CO, LO, SS, Revolver,, simple no power in the scoring equation.
If all divisions allowed Major scoring without an arbitrary penalty, you'd see alot more of it.

[Racinready300ex]

34 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

Its only dieing because new division rules have wussified everything.  There is no reward in all but open and Limited.
While a couple rounds in limited or open dont matter they make a difference at only 10 rounds.
So production CO, LO, SS, Revolver,, simple no power in the scoring equation.
If all divisions allowed Major scoring without an arbitrary penalty, you'd see alot more of it.

 

Just because someone would shoot major in a division if allowed doesn't mean they want to either.

[Racinready300ex]

3 hours ago, APL-G35 said:

USPSA needs to cut divisions and do something to seperate what we have now.

 

Open as is

Lim as is

PCC as is

CO/LO combine and make 15 rounds

Locap = SS, Prod Revo, L10  10 round Minor 8 round Major 

 

Run 3 Nationals a year.  Open/PCC/Lim

                                         CO/LO

                                         LoCap

 

 

 

I think your plan still leaves a huge hole in the sport. We have no where for a standard capacity 9mm handgun with iron sights to play competitively. This is a huge segment of the shooting world and as is has no place in our sport. Everyone is either forced into limited at a disadvantage or they need 5 mags and 4 mag pouches so they can reload 3 times as much as everyone else. 

[IVC]

On minor vs. major...

 

Just wait until CO and LO guys start demanding major scoring with minor power. 4-point Charlies for everyone! And then cue in the .22 crowd, because "ammo is cheaper and it allows recoil sensitive to join."  Rimfire could be like steel challenge - counts the same as anything else as long as it goes "ping."  
 

If the rules allow weaker round, people will shoot it as long as you get 5 points for Alpha. 

[OpenshooterMclass4lyfe]

44 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

Its only dieing because new division rules have wussified everything.  There is no reward in all but open and Limited.
While a couple rounds in limited or open dont matter they make a difference at only 10 rounds.
So production CO, LO, SS, Revolver,, simple no power in the scoring equation.
If all divisions allowed Major scoring without an arbitrary penalty, you'd see alot more of it.

It’s dying because people don’t care to shoot it anymore.  The cost of reloading components and the cost of the guns is why it’s dying.  It has nothing to do with being wussified.   

[Darqusoull13]

1 hour ago, shred said:

If L10 was really needed, we'd also need Open-10 and CO-10 and LO-10, and nobody is asking for any of those.

 

15 is more interesting, lets randos with factory mags and a couple pouches play (even w/.40 minor or .357 Sig or whatever floats their boat) and doesn't turn yet another division goat rodeo for the magic spring and followers to get one more round than the other guy.

 

 

 

The most alluring thing about Prod-15 is using normal, reliable as heck mags. That and not reloading every time I move my feet.

[Joe4d]

20 hours ago, OpenshooterMclass4lyfe said:

Interesting seeing how major is dying all the way across the board.   

 

42 minutes ago, OpenshooterMclass4lyfe said:

It’s dying because people don’t care to shoot it anymore.  The cost of reloading components and the cost of the guns is why it’s dying.  It has nothing to do with being wussified.   

They dont care to shoot it because most divisions dont recognize major.  reloading is a non factor,,slight cost difference for 40 bullets . a limited scored minor,, or going to a mag length rule in Production though I am sure would be the most popular division..

[Racinready300ex]

For me cost is a consideration, shooting 9 I'll get one more case of bullets a year for the same money. 

 

Mostly I just don't want to shoot 40 anymore. I did it for years and I think I'm done with it. 

[APL-G35]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I think your plan still leaves a huge hole in the sport. We have no where for a standard capacity 9mm handgun with iron sights to play competitively. This is a huge segment of the shooting world and as is has no place in our sport. Everyone is either forced into limited at a disadvantage or they need 5 mags and 4 mag pouches so they can reload 3 times as much as everyone else. 

It's a fairly minor hole really.  The argument that it gives 9mm hicap no place to play is kind of lame.  The people that are doing that anyway typically aren't heavily invested into being a regular of the sport.  It's typically newbs showing up to give it a go for the first time with what they have.  

[OpenshooterMclass4lyfe]

27 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

 

They dont care to shoot it because most divisions dont recognize major.  reloading is a non factor,,slight cost difference for 40 bullets . a limited scored minor,, or going to a mag length rule in Production though I am sure would be the most popular division..

Reloading is definitely a factor.   Cost of the guns are definitely a factor.  Open being the highest costing division to play in for cost of guns and the ammo to run them.   The reason major is dying is because majority of people want to come out and play for as cheap as possible. 

[Racinready300ex]

4 minutes ago, APL-G35 said:

It's a fairly minor hole really.  The argument that it gives 9mm hicap no place to play is kind of lame.  The people that are doing that anyway typically aren't heavily invested into being a regular of the sport.  It's typically newbs showing up to give it a go for the first time with what they have.  

 

Right, but why would someone get heavily invested into a sport that doesn't have a place for them to begin with? It's kind of silly to say "no one but newbs shoot these guns" when there isn't anywhere for members to shoot them. 

 

And yet, half of limited shooters shoot minor knowing their getting screwed. They can be faster and more accurate and still loose. Can't imagine why people aren't lining up to shoot that. 

[ddc]

2 hours ago, shred said:

If L10 was really needed, we'd also need Open-10 and CO-10 and LO-10, and nobody is asking for any of those.

 

 

I've always thought that if there was at one point a good reason for L10 then why wasn't there a good reason for Open10?

I assume L10 was in response to the 1994 AWB or associated legislation?

[whan]

27 minutes ago, OpenshooterMclass4lyfe said:

Reloading is definitely a factor.   Cost of the guns are definitely a factor.  Open being the highest costing division to play in for cost of guns and the ammo to run them.   The reason major is dying is because majority of people want to come out and play for as cheap as possible. 

 

I agree - cost and logistics is absolutely a factor. I'm a fairly dedicated shooter at ~10k rounds per year (though far from the most), but I also have no interest in loading my own ammo, and have been that way since starting in USPSA 4 years ago. I only have interest in shooting 9mm because it's straightforward. Off the shelf Supervel .40 is 40CPR for 1k before tax and shipping, while off the shelf Supervel 124gr 9mm is 25CPR. It'd be 60% more to shoot .40, or at my rate probably an extra $2k a year

 

44 minutes ago, APL-G35 said:

It's a fairly minor hole really.  The argument that it gives 9mm hicap no place to play is kind of lame.  The people that are doing that anyway typically aren't heavily invested into being a regular of the sport.  It's typically newbs showing up to give it a go for the first time with what they have.  

 

I disagree that the people shooting 9mm hicap are only newbs showing up to give it a go. CO nationals has strongest heat over other divisions, and also was the only standalone nationals, and even then had a large waiting list to get in. Yes, Irons 9mm hicap is going to be more niche, but in general the popularity of CO with very dedicated/talented shooters proves that there is desire across the board to shoot hicap 9mm. I'd bet good money that if they made production 15rd, it'd be be far more popular than limited division, and likely have better top shooters as well. My take, Limited is a dying division because you have to shoot .40, and most people, both new and experienced shooters, don't want to deal with .40 for many reasons

[Racinready300ex]

If they'd made production and CO 140's at the same time, CO would never have become what it is today. No doubt. 

[shred]

2 hours ago, ddc said:

 

I've always thought that if there was at one point a good reason for L10 then why wasn't there a good reason for Open10?

I assume L10 was in response to the 1994 AWB or associated legislation?

Yes, it was.  People during the 1994-2004 ban years couldn't get pre-ban mags for many Limited-legal pistols.  Open guns were all STI or Para and prebans of those mags were available, albeit at steep prices (as were all the parts needed to assemble hicap mags for those that didn't care so much for that law.)

 

[whan]

The way things work today, given that rule 3.3.1 isn't enforced (or if you read that it only applies in states that ban possession of grandfathered mags), I think a dedicated L10 division is still necessary. Many in CA shoot the full capacity of their divisions, as possession of grandfathered mags (including freedom week mags) is legal. But there are some people who may not own those mags and thus are going to be stuck with 10 rounds. If production goes to 15 (which I hope it will), new shooters without revos or 1911s are going to be stuck being uncompetitive

 

At the same time, it doesn't make sense to have a bunch of divisions cater to those people either, especially on a national scale. I think making L10 a catch all division to allow essentially LO type major guns, and removing SS/Revo makes the most sense. It's not going to be the most balanced division but this is going to capture almost everyone's guns except full open guns. This essentially will allow Lim, LO, CO, SS, Prod and Revo a place to play on a somewhat even playing field, especially if we do major-8/minor-10 and score Revo as major. Won't be perfect, but probably the cleanest solution

[IVC]

People stuck with 10 round magazines in Limited are no different that people stuck with 10 round magazines in Open, C/O, L/O, PCC. Why no Open-10, C/O-10, L/O-10 and PCC-10? The point is that divisions other than L10 are all based on the gun itself, while L10 is the only one that is based on the magazines. And this distinction is based on a concept that is about to go away, which is the state laws limiting magazine capacity. 

 

Actually, I would LOVE to see PCC change to PCC-10 for a season or two, just "to show those rifle guys." And there should be a limit on magazine length in PCC-10 - factory only, no special basepads. LOL. (This is joking, of course.) 

[shred]

People that are stuck in just one state and never shoot anywhere else probably shouldn't be telling everyone else how to do it nationwide.

 

Local clubs can recognize Glock shooters or 10-round shooters or whatever else they want.

 

I lobbied for 30-round PCC when it started because you can get 30 round mags for nearly any random subgun made since the 1940s, but apparently ROs can't count that high or do math to figure out someone shoots 32 round stage without a reload is up to shenanigans.

 

[whan]

45 minutes ago, IVC said:

People stuck with 10 round magazines in Limited are no different that people stuck with 10 round magazines in Open, C/O, L/O, PCC. Why no Open-10, C/O-10, L/O-10 and PCC-10? The point is that divisions other than L10 are all based on the gun itself, while L10 is the only one that is based on the magazines. And this distinction is based on a concept that is about to go away, which is the state laws limiting magazine capacity. 

 

Actually, I would LOVE to see PCC change to PCC-10 for a season or two, just "to show those rifle guys." And there should be a limit on magazine length in PCC-10 - factory only, no special basepads. LOL. (This is joking, of course.) 

 

I'm very much hoping you're right that mag capacity limits are going to go away! But think that's my point, if we just rolled it together into one called "Locap Division", it should capture most people except Open and PCC shooters. Which is probably fine - new shooters probably aren't going to be jumping directly into Open. And experienced Open shooters, at least here in CA, seem to have all been around long enough to have Freedom Week mags. USPSA is a pistol game anyways so PCC is whatever.

 

But for someone who recently got into firearms and wants to try USPSA, only has 10 round mags, should be able to play in a general "Locap Division" with the rules I proposed above with pretty much any pistol they buy off the shelf at the store. Glocks, X5 Legions with magwells, Staccato Ps, .45 single stack 1911s, Revolvers, .40 P226, etc. All with or without optics

Edited July 13, 2023 by whan

[MHicks]

IVC. I realize that there have been favorable rulings that could eliminate magazine restrictions. How confident are you that this is going to happen? Hopefully soon.

[IVC]

20 minutes ago, MHicks said:

IVC. I realize that there have been favorable rulings that could eliminate magazine restrictions. How confident are you that this is going to happen? Hopefully soon.

This is not a political forum and moderators frown upon anything that is not shooting-related. We discuss these types of issues on CalGuns in California, which is "gun forum" with all the politics that comes with it (as opposed to "shooting forum" such as this one). 

 

But this shouldn't be too controversial so I'll answer it here. After justice Thomas wrote the decision in Bruen and established a much stronger method for evaluation of gun laws (historical tradition vs. strict scrutiny we expected), there are a bunch of very ripe lawsuits that are waiting for the decision of circuit courts. In 9th Circuit, where CA is located, we actually already have a ruling by district court judge Benitez which enjoined the enforcement of the magazine capacity, but we are waiting at the moment for the circuit court (court of appeals) to issue a ruling. And if they try to play games, it's going back to the Supreme Court in a hurry. Most (if not all) LE agencies in CA already have in place policies not to mess with any magazines, partly because of the preliminary injunction, partly because of the "freedom week" (related to judge Benitez I mentioned above), and partly because most see writing on the wall. Our sheriff in Riverside county, Chad Bianco is a great pro-2A guy, so he has an additional disdain for enforcement of any magazine limitations. 

 

(Moderators, if this is not appropriate, feel free to delete or move. The topic is important because it affects discussion of divisions with administratively restricted capacities.) 

[IVC]

50 minutes ago, whan said:

 

But think that's my point, if we just rolled it together into one called "Locap Division", it should capture most people except Open and PCC shooters.

 

The problem with this is that you would still have significantly different hardware that makes it uneven, even though it's all "Lo-cap." 

 

Revolver (which I shoot from time to time and hold pretty high classification) is significantly different from a 1911 with polished trigger (essentially a lo-cap Limited gun), which is different from the SA/DA Production guns and the "plastic fantastic" DAO guns. If anything, we could have a "lo-cap" *division* and then within it specific categories such a revo/plastic DAO/DA-SA/SS, etc. But that's essentially the same as keeping the current *divisions* and not mess around with categories. 

 

I see too much worrying about divisions with just a few shooters. This is unwarranted because people mostly look at the overall standings anyway. If I shoot an unpopular division, I really don't care how I did inside that division. And a new guy who is worried about his placement can always break it down further into, e.g., classes and proclaim that he "won the Production U class" or something of the sort. But those people are rare. New guys just want to shoot and regulars know what matters when looking at the score sheet. And just to drive the point home, just a week or two ago I shot a local pistol match (not USPSA, an all steel match) with a revolver. That was the ammo I had on hand so that's what I shot. And it didn't matter at all that I beat the other revo guy by a large margin, it was fun that I beat most of the semi-auto guys. And even that didn't matter one bit, since these are not real competitors who practice or shoot a lot. So, in the end, shooting an unpopular division is more like being in a category than in a division. 

[-JCN-]

On 7/11/2023 at 3:40 PM, shred said:

Nor did they ask about any changes to CO...

 

140mm instantly kills the 'noob' and 'factory' factors for the division.    Very few outside of USPSA have 140s out of the box.

 

Although there are a lot of factory 20 round mags…

 

Even that new SA echelon thing comes with 20 rounders. 
 

CZ SP01 competition comes with 21 rounders. 
 

 

[louu]

15 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

 

I don't think that's correct. You're likely counting MD which can have any size mag we want. DE I think is limited to 17, isn't CO limited to 15 and even then no one enforces it. I'm not sure about the others. I think some of them have grandfather clauses and everyone still shoots hi-cap.

 

I just took a quick look at the match results up in Quinton NJ. Looks like the last match had 2 L10 shooters, the one before that only had 1. So even in a state like NJ L10 is a waste and needs to go. 

 

Nope, Delaware is 10 rounds unless you have a ccw permit then you can have 17, like I said over a quarter of the states are 10 round states. 

 

Quinton is a terrible example for anything, less than 30 people shoot that match, I don't even shoot that match. CJ and OB always have over 80 shooters and there is always more people shooting L10 than regular limited. 

 

Shooting hi cap divisions with 10 round mags is a disadvantage on the newer classifiers that have movement. 

Wish you were here, righty tightly, trigger freeze there is a bunch of them, I've shot them in 10 round states and in regular states and I'm always a full second faster without the mag changes. 

 

Killing a division just because YOU say so and probably don't even shoot it is and it's really weird that you care so much. There are a lot of people that worked hard to get their classification in said division and you want to take that away from them? 

 

Myself, I don't really care about L10 but I always consider other people in my choices, maybe you should to.