Limited optics strong early showing

[Rich406]

2 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

 

That's just so they can say they did their due diligence. The other question they asked is how many people had already bought guns for that division, and a lot have. They want the division to flourish, so it will be minor

I don’t disagree with this, however if it’s still being discussed, its change is still on the table.  
 

[Boomstick303]

1 hour ago, RJH said:

I don't think there was ever any question that there would be a lot of custom guns getting built, but there is also a lot of interest in staccados and prodigies and other factory and semi-custom guns

 

It was my recollection that it was discussed all sort of gun could play in the division.  I do not recall that the division was designed for production 2011s was a specific topic of any sort.  There was also a discussion that these various companies pressured USPSA to create this division to up their sales.   

 

Edited August 4, 2023 by Boomstick303

[Nathanb]

11 hours ago, RJH said:

 

No, they did it correctly. Major in new divisions would be dumb if the object was for people to shoot them. But that has been hashed out about a million times already on this site. How is limited optics doing in your area?

And you miss the point it’s provisional. See what people are actually shooting how many are shooting. You get another piece of data to actually work with. But minor only cuts off any chance of that. My expectation is it will be fully accepted as a division and be minor only but we wouldn’t be having polls sent out asking these questions either. 
 

 

last local had 7 of 93. Lots of people playing in another division. One is back to open this week 

[RJH]

38 minutes ago, Nathanb said:

And you miss the point it’s provisional. See what people are actually shooting how many are shooting. You get another piece of data to actually work with. But minor only cuts off any chance of that. My expectation is it will be fully accepted as a division and be minor only but we wouldn’t be having polls sent out asking these questions either. 
 

 

last local had 7 of 93. Lots of people playing in another division. One is back to open this week 

 

 

You miss the point, no reason to allow major in a new division, unless you are going to leave it there. And major will kill any new division before it starts, so no reason to entertain the thought. But once again hasn't been hashed out about a million times some kind of tired talking about it.

 

At the last match here, carry-ops was still the biggest followed by open. Limited and limited optics were tied for 4th with one or two people in the other divisions. So limited optics isn't doing too bad here for a division that's only 3 months old. And everybody that shot it last month was shooting a 2011 except maybe one guy I'm not sure about. So they weren't just shooting their carryops guns and playing 

[outerlimits]

carry optics is dumb.  limited optics is dumber.  pcc, don't get me started...

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, RJH said:

 And major will kill any new division before it starts,

only if you accept the premise that most people are lazy pansies.  I personally accept that premise, although I wish it was otherwise. For the same reason, enduro motorcycle racing has gradually withered, while professional cornhole has become a thing. crazy times we live in.

[RangerTrace]

2 hours ago, outerlimits said:

carry optics is dumb.  limited optics is dumber.  pcc, don't get me started...

You sound like some Limited GMs when I tried a little 3gun a few years ago.  Don't hate.  Just let others shoot and try to be happy.    

[Boomstick303]

Standard practice for some to measure everyone to themselves.  Not sure why or how other people participate in hobbies does not match your standards or expectations is a requirement and makes any shooter a pansy?  Let us face it, for 90% of USPSA shooters are in it for a hobby.  They put zero practice or effort other than shooting matches once to a couple times month.  They never attend a National match, and very rarely attend a Level 2 and up if at all.  Not sure if shooting Major in any capacity makes any sense for 95% of the membership.  Some do shoot Limited and other Major Divisions with this type of effort, so I guess that makes like what,  80-85% of the membership pansies?

 

Just curious for those who play in both Major and Minor.  Are you a MAN when shooting 40 and or Open then become a PANSY when shooting 9mm?   Asking for a friend.  

 

[whan]

There's an argument to be made Carry Optics is actually the "least dumb" of all the USPSA divisions, being the division with equipment closest to what people are actually using in the real world. Also, I'd be fine shooting 40 or 45 if from a logistics or cost perspective it was on par with 9mm. I don't think wanting to save money / time on ammo and having better logistical support for 9mm guns makes one a pansy.

 

If it was purely about difficulty of shooting the gun, I don't see people advocating for shooting Revo Major, Lim 10 with 40 Glocks, subcompacts in production. If we are criticizing people for choosing not to shoot the 40S&W because they don't want to handle the "manly recoil", we should also be criticizing people for building heavyweight limited 2011s, running compensators in open, thumbrests, and all the other stuff people do to reduce recoil

[ltdmstr]

41 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

Just curious for those who play in both Major and Minor.  Are you a MAN when shooting 40 and or Open then become a PANSY when shooting 9mm?   Asking for a friend.  

 

Doesn't really have anything to do with being a MAN about it.  I just don't enjoy shooting with a dot or with minor power factor.  That's why I've never shot Open.  And why I don't shoot CO/LO even though I have a full custom Prodigy that was probably one of the first ever built.  It's a fun toy that I play with on occasion.  But I don't compete with it.  Like someone said previously about CO/LO, it's like playing a video game.  Comes down more to how fast you can move through the course and pop off a few rounds along the way vs. actual shooting.  Might as well do it with pellet guns or 22s.  I don't think the times or hits on target would be much different.  I get it that everything in life now has to come with an easy button or people will avoid it because they don't want to commit the time and effort to master anything that's "difficult."  I accept that and know it's not going to change.  But, that doesn't mean I have to be in that crowd.

[RangerTrace]

I moved to all 9mm to make reloading easier and more affordable.  And I can't get once fired 40 from LE agencies any more......Theyve all gone to 9mm.

[whan]

11 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:

 

Doesn't really have anything to do with being a MAN about it.  I just don't enjoy shooting with a dot or with minor power factor.  That's why I've never shot Open.  And why I don't shoot CO/LO even though I have a full custom Prodigy that was probably one of the first ever built.  It's a fun toy that I play with on occasion.  But I don't compete with it.  Like someone said previously about CO/LO, it's like playing a video game.  Comes down more to how fast you can move through the course and pop off a few rounds along the way vs. actual shooting.  Might as well do it with pellet guns or 22s.  I don't think the times or hits on target would be much different.  I get it that everything in life now has to come with an easy button or people will avoid it because they don't want to commit the time and effort to master anything that's "difficult."  I accept that and know it's not going to change.  But, that doesn't mean I have to be in that crowd.

 

Why not shoot Single Stack Major then? If the goal is that "difficult" shooting is more enjoyable, arguably the lower weight limit in SS, low mag capacity that forces you to actually reload often, and requirement for real holsters, would need more time and effort to "master".

 

I agree that CO is objectively easier to shoot than most divisions (I started with shooting SS for 3 years before moving to CO), but it also means you're competing against others with the same equipment. My point is that painting other divisions as not requiring "time and effort" to master is unfair. 

[RJH]

4 minutes ago, RangerTrace said:

I moved to all 9mm to make reloading easier and more affordable.  And I can't get once fired 40 from LE agencies any more......Theyve all gone to 9mm.

 

This, so much this. 

 

I do still 40&45 occasionally, but cost and simplicity makes 9 so much mo better for me. Hell, I even bought a 9 carry gun a couple day ago after carrying a 40 for years 

[ltdmstr]

10 minutes ago, whan said:

 

Why not shoot Single Stack Major then? If the goal is that "difficult" shooting is more enjoyable, arguably the lower weight limit in SS, low mag capacity that forces you to actually reload often, and requirement for real holsters, would need more time and effort to "master".

 

I agree that CO is objectively easier to shoot than most divisions (I started with shooting SS for 3 years before moving to CO), but it also means you're competing against others with the same equipment. My point is that painting other divisions as not requiring "time and effort" to master is unfair. 

 

I have nothing against single stack.  Just doesn't make sense to do with current course design.  And that's now starting to be the case with stages favouring optics v. irons.  Regarding time and effort, that's partly true.  The CO/LO shooter still has to learn how to break down stages and that stuff.  But as far as the actual shooting goes, you have to be pretty close to incompetent if you can't shoot a dot gun with 125 pf ammo well with minimal time and effort.  

Edited August 5, 2023 by ltdmstr

[whan]

9 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:

 

I have nothing against single stack.  Just doesn't make sense to do with current course design.  And that's now starting to be the case with stages favouring optics v. irons.  Regarding time and effort, that's partly true.  The CO/LO shooter still has to learn how to break down stages and that stuff.  But as far as the actual shooting goes, you have to be pretty close to incompetent if you can't shoot a dot gun with 125 pf ammo well with minimal time and effort.  

 

I'd agree that yes, it takes less time and effort for a new shooter to get up to speed shooting a current CO gun with reasonable proficiency. But would say that "mastery" isn't any easier because the bar you're being judged against is your competitors. Also would add with minor scoring, you're penalized more for the same errors you'd make in Limited. So the best shooters would need to be shooting an even higher % of alphas vs. limited shooters, which means the margin for error is lower

 

It'd be like racing a modern supercar and a vintage trans-am car. Of course, with modern tech and electronics, it's going to be a lot easier for a new driver to get up to speed with the modern supercar, set an ok lap-time, and not spin off the track. But that doesn't mean mastery is any less difficult - the performance envelope of the supercar is higher so the bar for mastery and getting the most out of the equipment is higher as well

[ltdmstr]

I really don't understand this thinking that people compete across divisions or that overall placement is an accurate indicator of how you compare to other shooters.  How in the world is a production or single stack shooter with iron sights and 10 round limit competing against an open shooter or CO/LO shooter?  Maybe Open v. Limited, or Limited v. CO/LO, is a smaller difference.  But, it's still there.  So, this just doesn't make sense to me.    As for minor pf shooters having to shoot more As.  Ok.  Big deal.  Isn't that easier to do with basically no recoil?  And who has the advantage on stages that are all steel?  Match I shot last week was 18 popper in two positions.  Clear advantage for CO/LO over everything else.  Or how about a stage with mini poppers and partial targets at 20+ yards?  You don't think a dot is an advantage on those?  At the end of the day, I really don't care.  I shoot what I do because that's what I enjoy and what I think is fun.  I'm never going to be a GM or get a corporate sponsorship, and I'm not trying to impress anyone or win any popularity contests.  So, I do what I like and when it's not fun any more, I'll do something else.   

[Joe4d]

17 hours ago, outerlimits said:

carry optics is dumb.  limited optics is dumber.  pcc, don't get me started...

Open minor,,, scored minor, box and weight rule, no comps or ports, slide mounted optics,,, woulda been megga smart. But you know... 

 

[BritinUSA]

5 hours ago, ltdmstr said:

I have nothing against single stack.  Just doesn't make sense to do with current course design.

Agree completely.

 

I see SS as a legacy division that showcases the origin of the sport. The stages that PASA park ran for the SS Nationals each year were designed around the platform and were similar to those used when the sport first began.

 

Trying to use a SS 1911 at most L1 (or any non-specific match for that matter) is like trying to put a square peg in a round hole.

 

Eventually SS, like Revolver is going to fade away. I think the success or failure of any division is determined mostly by stage design at L1 matches.

 

 

[BadShot]

What about course design makes Single Stack not fun?  I would prefer a 30 round stage where I have to break it down and plan my reloads correctly versus a 12-15 round stage.   I think everyone keeps looking at overall standings and thinks that is what defines the fun factor.

[Boomstick303]

19 hours ago, ltdmstr said:

Doesn't really have anything to do with being a MAN about it.  I just don't enjoy shooting with a dot or with minor power factor.

 

I am not trying to be confrontational with this post.   I am just trying to make a point and its not directed at you.  No it doesn't, and you are not the one calling everyone who shoots 9mm a pansy.  That is my point I don't understand why anyone else cares what someone else shoots.  

 

Different games (Divisions) require different skills to be successful.  Limited and Open are not even shot the same in reality.  Watch a Limited shooter shoot too slow once they first transition to Open.  CO/LO requires more accuracy in hitting a higher percentage of Alphas to be competitive, as you cannot shoot them the same as you would Limited and Open guns.  Single stack, Production, and yes I will include Revo, require excellent stage plans to be successful, and at times thinking way outside of the box to come up with an optimal plan.  There is something for everyone.  

 

18 hours ago, ltdmstr said:

At the end of the day, I really don't care.  I shoot what I do because that's what I enjoy and what I think is fun.  I'm never going to be a GM or get a corporate sponsorship, and I'm not trying to impress anyone or win any popularity contests.  So, I do what I like and when it's not fun any more, I'll do something else.   

 

This is my point with my comment above.  98% of the membership falls in this boat.  I would like to shoot the guns I like to shoot is a Division where others would like to compete. I don't care what anyone else is doing and never will.  I think it's cool there are so many Divisions, and while I get you can water it down, I to not currently think it is, there is a Division for everyone.  

 

Another reality is that 9mm is by far the most popular cartridge in competition and the real world for a reason.  The biggest reasons have nothing to do with recoil.

 

[Boomstick303]

On 8/5/2023 at 11:38 AM, ltdmstr said:

But as far as the actual shooting goes, you have to be pretty close to incompetent if you can't shoot a dot gun with 125 pf ammo well with minimal time and effort.

 

This is the exact reason CO and now LO will take off.  Of course I am guessing here but like 90%-95% of the membership puts minimal effort into the sport.  Little or no dry fire, not working on it outside of shooting matches.  I think we all agree matches are a test of skills obtained, not where you improve them.  Not sure I agree the bulk of the membership is shooting 125 PF ammo as it seems like majority of the "easy button" crowd is buying their own ammo not reloading, but I get the point.  

 

 

Edited August 8, 2023 by Boomstick303

[RangerTrace]

1 hour ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

This is the exact reason CO and now LO will take off.  Of course I am guessing here but like 90%-95% of the membership puts minimal effort into the sport.  Little or no dry fire, not working on outside of shooting matches.  I think we all agree matches are a test of skills obtained, not where you improve them.  Not sure I agree the bulk of the membership is shooting 125 PF ammo as it seems like majority of the "easy button" crowd is buying their own ammo not reloading, but I get the point.  

 

 

I agree with this because most of us work (outside of shooting) for a living and have family lives etc..  Competitive shooting is a hobby for most and there is nothing wrong with that.  For that top 10% that train like professionals, my hat is off to them.  

[MHicks]

Whatever competition I have got involved in I have always chosen to shoot the gun and caliber that I enjoyed shooting most. As opposed to finding a division and figuring out what the most competitive setup was and shooting that. Whatever division that put me in, that's what I shot. So it was SS major. But now with how few SS shooters there are I'm finally shooting my first match in LO next weekend.

 

I do like shooting major but don't consider it to be a manly man thing to do. It's just as difficult to be competitive against others in minor divisions. I'll see how it goes but figure I'll always pull out the 1911 and shoot it sometimes.

[ltdmstr]

4 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

I am not trying to be confrontational with this post.   I am just trying to make a point and its not directed at you.

 

No problem.  I didn't take it that way.  Just figured since I'm one of the few who still shoots Limited major, I'd offer an explanation why.

[shred]

23 hours ago, BadShot said:

What about course design makes Single Stack not fun?  I would prefer a 30 round stage where I have to break it down and plan my reloads correctly versus a 12-15 round stage.   I think everyone keeps looking at overall standings and thinks that is what defines the fun factor.

 

Stages ignoring or paying lip service to rule 1.2.1 for the most part.  When a big chunk of the match shot Prod, it was a lot less of a thing.  Now nobody cares come setup time.

 

Overalls you know you're not going to be at the top, but dumb standing reloads because somebody declared looking down the length of a wall out in the middle of an array constitutes a new 'view' sucks.