Limited Optics

[Racinready300ex]

15 hours ago, euxx said:

How many Limited and Open shooters you've had at those matches?

Picking a handful of matches and pulling random conclusions out of that won't give you real picture of competitor's desires. E.g. the CO shooters who don't want to break an expensive optics already have Limited division. So, I still don't really see what you want to achieve by making Production division be more like Limited.

The data from low cap states will not show you if their competitors want to shoot low cap or not, but it will show you how many of those competitors have to shoot low cap. It all adds to the whole picture.

 

Well the question is really low cap to high cap isn't it? What's more popular. That match had one low cap shooter, typically there are maybe 3 low cap shooters at that match. I'm registered for A6, looks like there are 17 low cap shooters signed up out of about 200 so far. 7 production shooters, which means at this point production wont even be a recognized division at the match. 

 

There were 2 A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want shooters at this last match, I know one was shooting a 320 that would be production legal if he had 10 round mags.

 

[RJH]

9 hours ago, SufferInSilence said:

It also seems like the biggest thing splitting up ‘hearts and minds’ is the concept of a 2011 having some kind of a distinct advantage over  every other gun… 

 

Hear me out… What if they simply did away with hammer down rule for DA/SA guns with an external safety for CO and just put “LO” guns in it?  

No lame azz slide racker, thumb rest, or mag wells.  (Want all that? Great, shoot Limited, the new L10 with optics option, or Open. Take the points hit if your gun MUST be a 9mm, like always)

 

Yall know the SA pull of the CZ, T-fo, well-dun-up P320, Glock, Walther, etc, in the right hands is every bit of an equal threat.  
 

Love the DA/SA draw…? Keep it, your choice, rock on!  

Have a DA/SA with a decocker/no external safety…? Sorry, majority rules, hammer down for safety (or maybe even not, it’s the same concept as a striker gun considering most decockers also have a firing pin block these days) 

 

Then, dudes aren’t dumping their CO gear for new stuff, “arms race” is averted, and 2011 style guns stay more “practical/carry” minded.   

 

 

I would be completely fine with all of that. That is one of the reasons I haven't put a magwell on my limited optics gun yet. If they decide to just allow Sao guns in carryops, and not change anything else my gun would be legal. The only thing that makes it illegal now is it has a single action trigger. Hell, it weighs under 40 oz LOL.

 

 

[Racinready300ex]

15 hours ago, pskys2 said:

Was squaded with travis tomasie at an area 3 a decade ago and watched him use his last mag due to muscle memory reloads.

 

Did he make the excuse of it just being muscle memory? It's not like I haven't seen good shooters do it on occasion. It's a mistake in visualization, or maybe their run already took a wrong turn somewhere and they got off track.

 

The people that this happens to all the time and use this as a excuse just aren't doing it right. But, maybe it's all the IDPA I've shot over the years that skews my view on that. In IDPA you really have to plan out your round count and reloads. You also move with out reloading a lot because you can't just reload when ever you want. 

[Racinready300ex]

14 hours ago, euxx said:

Is there anything needed to be changed in the rules to make you shoot SS again? Because that is what you really asking for... 

 

What it would take to get me to shoot SS is more people shooting it. There is really no way to make that happen. I'm not going to really shoot production for the same reason. 

 

Merging divisions might help, certainly wouldn't hurt since all the low cap divisions are dead from a numbers standpoint. 

 

 

[sfinney]

I've seen alot of comments about speculation on why some are not wanting to shoot  Production, or low cap Divisions. 

 

My feelings (I started USPSA with 10 rnd mags in my 1911, when there was just Limited and Open, and Limited was pretty new) are that many people tend to want to shoot the "coolest new kid on the block" gun especially if it involves new gear. Rather than double down on your existing gear and train more, to win in a small or declining division, many will just buy new gear and jump in the deep end of a new Division and shoot against where the perceived majority of shooters will be, for competition.

 

With the provisional Limited Optics being considered, it would seem this would be a good time to re-examine the role each existing Division should play.

 

I like the idea of putting all low cap Divisions in one group, for attendance count, as mentioned in this thread. I'm sure revolver shooters or those who are scared to shoot against a single action 1911 would disagree.

 

IMO Carry Optics is so popular is that its big draw is 140mm mags and allowed extensive mods (and for some with bad eyes the optic is nice), and I'm sure Limited Optics will develop and have a fan base too, for similar reasons (only reason its being restricted to minor is to prop up Staccato).

 

Why not take this opportunity to return Production to its roots that match IPSC Production - box stock guns? And make the mag capacity that fit the box, to draw the Hicap crowd back in? How many new shooters show up with Production legal guns only to be told (or misinterpret based on what they see) that they need a $1500 all metal race gun, with tuned triggers, $200 in grip work, to be competitive? And be told that they have to download their 17, 18 round mags to 10? Or be asked why don't they just add an Optic, as their chosen Division is dead?

 

A simpler, stock Production with hicaps, paired with Carry Optics for upgrading the production type guns, and now maybe Limited Optics, could sit next to one 10 rnd Division for SS/Revolver/10 round mandated states, leaving Open as still being King of the Hill. What's that, 5 Divisions total? And 4 of those would make up 90%+ of shooters.

[sfinney]

On 1/2/2023 at 3:49 PM, Patrick Scott said:

If they are hell bent on making this division separate from CO I just wish they would drop the "Limited" name from the division. Call it Tac Optics or Sport Optics, Action Optics or anything else.  IMO putting "Limited" in the name ties it too much into the current Limited division. 

Agreed. Its NOT Limited if its going to be mandated minor only.

[SufferInSilence]

1 hour ago, RJH said:It also seems like the biggest thing splitting up ‘hearts and minds’ is the concept of a 2011 having some kind of a distinct advantage over  every other gun… 

What SufferInSilence said:

“Hear me out… What if they simply did away with hammer down rule for DA/SA guns with an external safety for CO and just put “LO” guns in it?  

No lame azz slide racker, thumb rest, or mag wells.  (Want all that? Great, shoot Limited, the new L10 with optics option, or Open. Take the points hit if your gun MUST be a 9mm, like always)

 

Yall know the SA pull of the CZ, T-fo, well-dun-up P320, Glock, Walther, etc, in the right hands is every bit of an equal threat.  
 

Love the DA/SA draw…? Keep it, your choice, rock on!  

Have a DA/SA with a decocker/no external safety…? Sorry, majority rules, hammer down for safety (or maybe even not, it’s the same concept as a striker gun considering most decockers also have a firing pin block these days) 

 

Then, dudes aren’t dumping their CO gear for new stuff, “arms race” is averted, and 2011 style guns stay more “practical/carry” minded.” 

 

RJH: 

I would be completely fine with all of that. That is one of the reasons I haven't put a magwell on my limited optics gun yet. If they decide to just allow Sao guns in carryops, and not change anything else my gun would be legal. The only thing that makes it illegal now is it has a single action trigger. Hell, it weighs under 40 oz LOL.

 

 

Thanks RJH.  I think the the majority of reasonable people would agree this would/could recurve a hindsight-timeline for guns & gear.  

The thing to remember is that the game evolves the market and the market evolves the game. It will never stay the same game.  They are a codependent system.  

 

Our upper representatives are doing their best to evolve with what’s out there and popular, in order to keep the sport moving.  

When I started many years ago the idea of a dot outside of Open wasn’t even a thing.  Now it is on most major off the shelf guns.  We can’t ignore that evolution forever. 
 

We have to keep the fun/“game” aspect of the sport the focus.  I’d say most of us aren’t the 1% that make a “wealthy” living doing this.  Which means this is OUR game.  
Let’s keep it a source of fellowship and growth instead of contention.  

[motosapiens]

45 minutes ago, sfinney said:

IMO Carry Optics is so popular is that its big draw is 140mm mags and allowed extensive mods (and for some with bad eyes the optic is nice),

 

lol, i have good eyes still, but the optic is the main draw for me (and most others, I suspect). I already shoot another division with 140mm mags and extensive mods allowed (limited).

[Bdh821]

12 hours ago, rowdyb said:

People would shoot a squirt gun division if their friends were and if a large number of regular shooters plus "heat" did as well. There is a strong component of 'everyone is doing it so it's cool' vs let's do this because the gun is cool.

I agree with this.  I feel at least in my New England area, LO will be a popular division.  I know I want to do it.

[sfinney]

15 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

lol, i have good eyes still, but the optic is the main draw for me (and most others, I suspect). I already shoot another division with 140mm mags and extensive mods allowed (limited).

I'm one who who used to have 20/15 vision and was decent with irons, but now have "bad eyes". I was never much of an open guy. The optic has not been enough of a draw so far for me to jump into CO.... but I'm weakening. "Seeing" is nice, kinda miss it.

 

Each to his own.  

 

Still think this sport has a need for an "entry level" division and as written to be arm races, Production / Carry Optics are not those, from an equip and $ amount stance.

[ddc]

I was a Production shooter for quite a while after CO went to the 141.5 mags.

 

While I enjoyed the challenge of 10 round mags once I moved to CO I realized that although I appreciated the challenge of 10 round mags I was just having more fun with the 141.5's.

 

Some thoughts on how I see my future participation in Production:

1. In it's current state I would probably not shoot it again except on rare occasions.

2. I might consider it more often with a 15 round limit.

3. If it reverted to more IPSC like rules I would not shoot it again.

4. The only thing that would truly spark my interest would be if it kept the current rules but allowed 141.5 mags.

 

I realize that #4 probably just blew a few fuses...

[konkapot]

An interesting thought. Now that Production is dead-ish, maybe that provides an opportunity for a reshoot on the Division. 

[BritinUSA]

A Minor-only LimitedOptics division is essentially the same as CarryOptics. It adds nothing new to the sport except to allow SAO guns. 

I suspect that when it is introduced there will be little difference in scores between the two divisions. My Q5 Walther has a superb trigger that feels as good to me as my 2011 trigger. 
 

After reading all these posts, I think a logical direction would be:

• Allow magwells and SAO in to Carry Optics.
• Rename the division to Limited Optics - The name Carry Optics was set when it was for polymer guns, the name is now ridiculous and does not reflect what the division is.
• Return Production back to its roots, same rules as IPSC (15 rounds)
• Create Production Optics, same as IPSC (15 rounds)
• Abolish L10

[deerslayer]

1 hour ago, BritinUSA said:

 

• Allow magwells and SAO in to Carry Optics.
• Rename the division to Limited Optics 

I bet this is exactly what happens and maybe nothing else. 

[Balakay]

2 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

• .. the name is now ridiculous and does not reflect what the division is...

this has been a fun thread to read.  Here is another suggestion for the name of the division

 

P.  rovisional

U.  ncompensated

S.  ingle Action 

S.  lide mounted  

[RJH]

20 minutes ago, Balakay said:

this has been a fun thread to read.  Here is another suggestion for the name of the division

 

P.  rovisional

U.  ncompensated

S.  ingle Action 

S.  lide mounted  

 

I don't really give two s**** what they call it, long as some form of  it happens lol

[Dazhi]

In shooting sport I like to think you constantly try your best to beat yourself, not others.  I may be unique in that I never thought of going to a match to beat X, Y or Z.  I aim to do better than what I did last time. 

 

In that sense, all the advantages/disadvantages comparison between 2011s and other guns IMO, boils down to whether I can do better shooting a 2011 or a Tanfo/CZ/Canik/etc given the same/similar amount of training.  Nils took Limited national champion title using a plastic gun does not automatically mean plastic guns are just as good as or better than 2011s.  I am pretty sure Luke Cao shooting a SVI will beat Luke Cao shooting a Walther if he practices the same amount of time on both.  

From this perspective, it's my personal belief that generally speaking shooters at all levels can do better with a 2011, some with bigger margins and others tiny.  It's possible some people's hands/forearms/shoulders are just built to fit a specific model of gun (could be a G34) better than any other including a 2011 thus they perform better with the best fit.

 

Just because not many people can hit the higher ceiling offered by 2011s, does not mean 2011s do not provide advantages.  I for one will try to switch to 2011 platform if they are allowed in CO, provided I have the funds to buy them.  From my very limited exposure to 2011s where I get to shoot my Tanfo side by side for a bit, I realized 2011 has many hidden superior soft stats that out shine the Tanfos.  These small things add up and raise the ceiling of your performance by certain percentage.  Whether I can hit that ceiling is different question, but it's higher. 

Edited January 5, 2023 by Dazhi

[SufferInSilence]

1 hour ago, Dazhi said:

In shooting sport I like to think you constantly try your best to beat yourself, not others.  I may be unique in that I never thought of going to a match to beat X, Y or Z.  I aim to do better than what I did last time. 

 

One million percent agree!! At some point each gun has its own level of maximum potential, some higher than others.  Gun X,Y or Z performs at this level… 

It’s the human input that that is the variable.  That variable is the life of the sport.  The technology to a certain point doesn’t matter.   
 

You can buy your way close to the top with great gear but, the human  variable still has to be ready to win. Gear will help you at local and level one matches but if you want to be the best you actually can be, it requires the type of input that the top dudes have put in.  
 

Eat a vegetable, go for a jog, dry fire, practice footwork, and you will destroy people no matter what you have.   
Where you rank is not the “fault” of the gear.  
Be a better variable.  

 

[Solairefastora]

New guy, not really too heavily active in the USPSA field, kinda just been watching threads and reading from the sidelines with some popcorn and an XXL diet soda.

 

Looking at from a beginner point of view and being curious, what do the older more experienced guys think is preventing Production from being more popular if not reloads? From a newbie, a large part of the issue is not that I don’t want to do reloads, but that stage design seems to be trending more and more towards higher round counts and a hoser style.

 

There is definitely SOME credence to the idea that people are kinda lazy and just need to “git gud and do reloads,” but the public and participation numbers bear something out: there is some reason people have migrated from Production to CO. Whatever the reason, people don’t like Production.

 

This discussion reminds me a lot of the “Is 3-Gun dying?” thread, where a lot of people (not trying to denigrate them) said “but why don’t guys want to lug around a rifle pistol shotgun and each ammo type in order to shoot?” I hate to use the term “elitism” due to how it has lost its original meaning, but it seems to me there are some with a prevailing mindset that “I like production the way it is therefore just keep it even though the numbers show others don’t like it anymore.”

 

Just two cents, I would definitely like to be proven wrong or be told I’m dumb (what’s new, no need to remind me), but this is just from a new guy perspective watching from the sidelines.

Edit: sorry, kinda shoved this here because the production thread has not seen activity and I was reading this thread with some discussion on the topic. My bad

Edited January 6, 2023 by Solairefastora
Reasons for posting in this thread

[OptimiStick]

4 hours ago, Dazhi said:

From my very limited exposure to 2011s where I get to shoot my Tanfo side by side for a bit, I realized 2011 has many hidden superior soft stats that out shine the Tanfos.  These small things add up and raise the ceiling of your performance by certain percentage.  Whether I can hit that ceiling is different question, but it's higher. 

 Since I've competed with you when you were shooting Tanfo, this is scary 

[shred]

I did some simple side-by-side comparisons with a Lim-O (as proposed) 2011 and my CO Tanfo.  Same 9mm ammo.  While I liked the Lim-O more and it felt less flippy, on the clock and on the paper, there was not a gnats worth of difference.  I didn't do anything that used the magwell or slide racker to try and level the comparison.

 

 

[Patrick Scott]

1 hour ago, shred said:

I did some simple side-by-side comparisons with a Lim-O (as proposed) 2011 and my CO Tanfo.  Same 9mm ammo.  While I liked the Lim-O more and it felt less flippy, on the clock and on the paper, there was not a gnats worth of difference.  I didn't do anything that used the magwell or slide racker to try and level the comparison.

 

 

No way, that can't be...

[Nolan]

8 hours ago, Balakay said:

this has been a fun thread to read.  Here is another suggestion for the name of the division

 

P.  rovisional

U.  ncompensated

S.  ingle Action 

S.  lide mounted  

 

You forgot

Y. eet Cannon

 

Nolan

[Southpaw]

1 hour ago, shred said:

I did some simple side-by-side comparisons with a Lim-O (as proposed) 2011 and my CO Tanfo.  Same 9mm ammo.  While I liked the Lim-O more and it felt less flippy, on the clock and on the paper, there was not a gnats worth of difference.  I didn't do anything that used the magwell or slide racker to try and level the comparison.

 

Unpossible.  CO and Production shooters need to be protected from scary 2011s!!!

[Racinready300ex]

11 hours ago, Solairefastora said:

There is definitely SOME credence to the idea that people are kinda lazy and just need to “git gud and do reloads,” but the public and participation numbers bear something out: there is some reason people have migrated from Production to CO. Whatever the reason, people don’t like Production.

 

 

I think you're on the right track. Most people who practice start out with draws and reloads. Some never really get past just working those things. Youtube and the gram are full of spicy reloads. I don't think it's really that people can't reload, that's more just what people who shoot low cap like to say to feel superior.

 

Stages over time have become vary hosey, and more and more shots from one position. This isn't super fun even with a hi-cap gun but it can be down right annoying with a low cap gun. Back when production was one of the biggest divisions stages had a different flavor to them. I am starting to see thing move back that way some. At the same time I'm seeing shots getting harder, probably because more stage designers have dots on their guns. This will push people into optic divisions. A 20 yard head box is basically impossible for a C class production shooter.

 

Another issue is everyone talks about a fantasy division and looking at the overall to see how they improved. Well, hicap guns finish higher in the overall. So if most people judge their finish based on the OA they are going to migrate toward hicap divisions. I think Practiscore is partially to blame for this.