New Popper Calibration Procedure

[motosapiens]

6 hours ago, shred said:

 

The best thing we could do is drop the calibration ammo PF lower so there's at least a measurable difference between it and some shooters line-pushing 'Minor' loads, but that adds another level of complexity unless USPSA can get some company to make 'calibration ammo' rather than grabbing a random Minor shooter at a club match.

 

 

2 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

Agreed   

 

I don't think we need to agree. Let one camp win - add two sentences to the calibration procedure explaining how a properly calibrated popper is supposed to react (E.G. 'note a properly calibrated popper may still screw minor shooters on windy days or when they hit within 1" of the edge of the scoring zone")- problem solved, not everybody will be happy but everybody would be on the same page.

 

these seem like sensible approaches to me.

fwiw, I bring calibration ammo to most local matches, but I also check the poppers carefully at every local match at my range, so the chances of a shooter getting treated unfairly are very very small.

[outerlimits]

let's make it real simple.  any popper that has a visible hit anywhere on the popper counts as down.  on activating poppers, they must fall, period.  calibrate them for minor and shoot it till it goes down-load accordingly.

[waktasz]

BOD won't do it. As it ignores one leg of DVC. 

[outerlimits]

2 minutes ago, waktasz said:

BOD won't do it. As it ignores one leg of DVC. 

that ship sailed long ago.

[waktasz]

Explain.

Last I checked we still had power factor. That's why you can't have a stage with all plates in it

 

Edited October 4, 2021 by waktasz

[outerlimits]

1 minute ago, waktasz said:

Explain.

Last I checked we still had power factor. That's why you can't have a stage with all plates in it

 

when DVC was created, it meant what it said.  my first match was in 1984-pre-chrono days.  we used a pendulum to determine power factor by matching 230 hardball.  once we got chronos, the power factor was like 175 then.  it has dropped ever since.  we keep dropping the PF to get in new calibers/guns, etc.  to me that diluted it.  and yes, i remember loading 160 gr 38 super bullets to major, unsupported barrels, superface, 9/25, etc.  and don't get started on plates.

[titandriver]

11 hours ago, outerlimits said:

when DVC was created, it meant what it said.  my first match was in 1984-pre-chrono days.  we used a pendulum to determine power factor by matching 230 hardball.  once we got chronos, the power factor was like 175 then.  it has dropped ever since.  we keep dropping the PF to get in new calibers/guns, etc.  to me that diluted it.  and yes, i remember loading 160 gr 38 super bullets to major, unsupported barrels, superface, 9/25, etc.  and don't get started on plates.

Ballistic pendulum for the win! As I recall a Commander-length 45 was used with 230 ball ammo. Can't remember the distance though, guessin' 10 yards.

[motosapiens]

13 hours ago, outerlimits said:

let's make it real simple.  any popper that has a visible hit anywhere on the popper counts as down.  on activating poppers, they must fall, period.  calibrate them for minor and shoot it till it goes down-load accordingly.

I don't like it. It's already simple.... if you run close to the limit on pf, you risk losing some points. too bad. People who don't like it should load hotter.

[Schutzenmeister]

Here's an idea ...

 

Calibrate ALL steel with standard velocity .22LR, typically around 42-43 PF.  THEN, when the whiners complain about not being able to knock steel down with their (supposedly) minimum 125 PF ammo, tell them tough break ... shoot it again!

 

\SARCASM MODE: Off

[PatJones]

4 hours ago, motosapiens said:

I don't like it. It's already simple.... if you run close to the limit on pf, you risk losing some points. too bad. People who don't like it should load hotter.

It doesn't affect you, mr limited shooter. How close do you load your 40s to the major floor?

 

I load to 135 and poppers still malfunction occasionally. Steel gets a little beat up with people sitting at out and all.

 

As I noted in a previous post, under select conditions a competitor can shoot sub minor ammo for score. This crap needs to work, and we need a system that corrects things when it doesn't.

 

[motosapiens]

14 minutes ago, PatJones said:

It doesn't affect you, mr limited shooter. How close do you load your 40s to the major floor?

 

I load to 135 and poppers still malfunction occasionally. Steel gets a little beat up with people sitting at out and all.

 

As I noted in a previous post, under select conditions a competitor can shoot sub minor ammo for score. This crap needs to work, and we need a system that corrects things when it doesn't.

 

I've been shooting co the last many months. loading to around 130. poppers seem to work fine as long as people pay attention to them, and if they get so far out of adjustment that they don't work, then they don't work for my 115 pf chrono ammo either.

[Artemas]

 Sarcastic idea incoming..

 

Just follow the stage briefing.  "X rounds on paper. Steel until down." No where in the brief does it say 1 shot on steel then cry to the RO.  Maintains DVC, keeps people honest, doesn't slow down the stage.

 

It's on the club and the RO's to correctly setup and calibrate the poppers and keep an eye on them throughout the match.

If I reset a popper a couple times, it's pretty easy to notice if it is sitting further forward and needs to be attended to.

 

 

 

 

 

[TaterHead]

40 minutes ago, Artemas said:

 

If I reset a popper a couple times, it's pretty easy to notice if it is sitting further forward and needs to be attended to.

Bingo. If any experienced shooter resets a popper, they can tell if it will fall. It is really, really simple to avoid the calibration stuff if you teach your children well.

[Thomas H]

On 10/1/2021 at 11:43 AM, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Interesting to think about that one.

 

If you deliberately selected or modified a popper so that it would react inconsistently say 1-10% of the time you would expect a large number of unsuccessful (from the shooters perspective) calibration requests. 

 

Interesting to note how you ignored the part of my post that specifically describe the situations in which shooters lost at calibration requests.

 

"In all of the other cases, almost invariably it was because someone had a barely-there edge hit on a popper, which then fell easily to 118 PF calibration ammunition."

 

Looking at how someone snidely insinuated that someone "deliberately selected or modified a popper so that it would react inconsistently" after being literally told what happened and why is....interesting to think about.  To use your own words.

 

 

On 10/1/2021 at 8:12 PM, PatJones said:

 

Steel doesn't test for power factor. Steel respects power factor in that major has a larger target area that will drop it. Steel is not there to be a test, that's what chrono is for.

 

Steel needs to work when someone hits it, period.

 

Um, steel completely tests for power factor.  (This is not the same thing as testing for major or minor.)  If you are shooting ammo that is below minor, it is unlikely that low hits (or even some hits in the calibration zone) will knock it down.  If you are shooting minor, some low hits might not knock it down.  Anyone who has tried to knock down a full-size popper with .22 ammo can tell you that indeed, steel tests for power factor in a pass/fail mode.

 

Steel needs to work when someone hits it in the calibration zone with ammo that is at least 125 PF.  This is not the same thing as "when someone hits it, period."

 

[IHAVEGAS]

4 hours ago, Thomas H said:

Interesting to note how you ignored the part of my post that specifically describe the situations in which shooters lost at calibration requests.

 

"In all of the other cases, almost invariably it was because someone had a barely-there edge hit on a popper, which then fell easily to 118 PF calibration ammunition."

 

Looking at how someone snidely insinuated that someone "deliberately selected or modified a popper so that it would react inconsistently" after being literally told what happened and why is....interesting to think about.  To use your own words.

 

If you actively seek out butt hurt that isn't there you will always succeed in finding it. 

 

My point was that poppers which behave inconsistently but usually fall can be expected to lead to failed reshoots. By way of example if a popper fails to react correctly 1% of the time there is a 99% chance that the person who had it fail when they shot will not get a reshoot. It is easy to understand if you think about it, or have watched it happen at matches. 

Edited October 5, 2021 by IHAVEGAS
clarity

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, Thomas H said:

 

Steel needs to work when someone hits it in the calibration zone with ammo that is at least 125 PF.  This is not the same thing as "when someone hits it, period."

 

 it just needs to work most of the time with 125pf ammo. If it doesn't work, there is a procedure to deal with it. it's perfectly fine with me if 125pf ammo occasionall doesn't knock steel down. that's why my wife makes me load her minor ammo above 130. she doesn't want to take a chance. She would rather let the guy running 125pf be the unlucky one.

[IHAVEGAS]

34 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 it just needs to work most of the time with 125pf ammo. If it doesn't work, there is a procedure to deal with it. it's perfectly fine with me if 125pf ammo occasionall doesn't knock steel down. that's why my wife makes me load her minor ammo above 130. she doesn't want to take a chance. She would rather let the guy running 125pf be the unlucky one.

I'm not certain that you really mean that, I suspect that your club runs a good match and you do everything you can to make sure that every competitor with legal ammo achieves the same score for the same performance.  

[Sarge]

Doing away with large poppers would get rid of 95% of the problem.

[BritinUSA]

Just now, Sarge said:

Doing away with large poppers would get rid of 95% of the problem.

Probably correct and similar to a post I made a while back on another thread.
 

When the large poppers were introduced, the vast majority of competitors were shooting Major ammunition. Over the years the PF for Major has gone down while Minor PF has remained stable. 
 

While the lowering of the Major PF has had some bearing, the biggest change since the introduction of the large poppers has been the massive increase in the number of competitors shooting Minor.

 

Form must follow function, and the function of the poppers has changed due in small part to the changes in Major PF, and by a larger degree by the increase of Minor in the sport.

 

I would go further and get rid of all the poppers, they have a significant surface area that does not count as a hit if the steel fails to fall. A hit anywhere on a plate counts for a hit and a reshoot if it fails to fall.

 

If we can come up with a reliable way to activate targets using plates then this would seem the better solution. They are also lighter, easier to setup and tear down with less chance of being affected by weather due to the smaller size.

[waktasz]

11 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Doing away with large poppers would get rid of 95% of the problem.

Doing away with all steel and just going to two hits on brown would fix everything and make pasting go much faster!

[IHAVEGAS]

16 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Doing away with large poppers would get rid of 95% of the problem.

 

If the larger calibration zone is wanted the "colt speed steel"  (no 'head' , calibration zone center at 22" instead of 27.38", 6" radius calibration zone) seems like it might also move things in the right direction (lighter, less of a windsail, should be cheaper).

I would have sworn that I have seen poppers with the steel below the calibration zone minimized but can't find them on the web and don't see that structure in appendix B2, so possibly they would not be legal? 

[motosapiens]

41 minutes ago, waktasz said:

Doing away with all steel and just going to two hits on brown would fix everything and make pasting go much faster!

doing away with scoring zones on the paper targets would be an improvement too. In fact, why even score them, just count shots. If you take the right number of shots, you get full score.

[Racinready300ex]

4 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

By way of example if a popper fails to react correctly 1% of the time there is a 99% chance that the person who had it fail when they shot will not get a reshoot. It is easy to understand if you think about it, or have watched it happen at matches. 

 

That's probably a good way to explain it. And of all the poppers I've seen called for calibration it's rare to see one stay up. Personally I think I've gotten 1 reshoot from a popper not falling in 8 years of USPSA. Of the ones I've lost some of my hits where low, some weren't. 

 

I shot a match earlier this year that the mini poppers were set so that my 145 PF ammo wouldn't knock them down if I hit low. Probably set perfectly I guess, but made for a lot of calibration calls.

[ima45dv8]

45 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

That's probably a good way to explain it. And of all the poppers I've seen called for calibration it's rare to see one stay up. Personally I think I've gotten 1 reshoot from a popper not falling in 8 years of USPSA. Of the ones I've lost some of my hits where low, some weren't. 

It is good. 

 

I've seen a good many calibration challenges from the other side, too. Even RM'ing level IIs, it's educational to be the guy called. Using freshly (that morning) chronoed sub-minor ammo, I dropped most of the offending steel with one shot. Shooters rarely won the challenge. 

 

In my experience, maybe 15% won. I don't like reshoots so, ammo available, I'd shoot it down and move on.  

[Racinready300ex]

5 minutes ago, ima45dv8 said:

It is good. 

 

I've seen a good many calibration challenges from the other side, too. Even RM'ing level IIs, it's educational to be the guy called. Using freshly (that morning) chronoed sub-minor ammo, I dropped most of the offending steel with one shot. Shooters rarely won the challenge. 

 

In my experience, maybe 15% won. I don't like reshoots so, ammo available, I'd shoot it down and move on.  

 

Yeah, the only way I'm leaving one up is if I think it's good and move on then when they're scoring it's still standing there staring at me. I'll call for calibration 100% of the time if that happens, even though it's only worked out for me once.