New Popper Calibration Procedure

[Schutzenmeister]

OK ... Here's a radical idea, put forth mostly tounge-in-cheek:

 

- Shooter hits the popper - anywhere above the hinge itself, even if all it does is scrape the paint off the very edge of the steel.

 

- Shooter requests calibration - BUT WAIT, there's a catch!

 

- The shooter must post a bond for the privilidge ... For the sake of discussion let's say $10 at a L1, $15 at a L2, $20 at a L3, or $25 at the Nationals  (Don't shoot me just yet!)

 

 - The RM is called and he follows the procedures (old, new, whatever is in the rules)

 

- If the shooter prevails in the challenge, he gets his bond back AND a reshoot.

 

- If the popper falls and is ruled properly calibrated (again, by whatever the rules state the procedure is) then he forfits his bond AND the stage is scored as shot.

 

Might reduce the number of "frivolous" calibration requests, might not ...

 

For those who think there is no precedence for this in any sport, consider the rules for throwing a red flag in the NFL.  If you prevail, you are allowed to do it again.  If you lose, you lose one of your challenges AND forfit a time out.

 

OK ... NOW you can shoot me.  (Remember I said this was MOSTLY tounge-in-cheek!)

[Racinready300ex]

4 minutes ago, Schutzenmeister said:

OK ... Here's a radical idea, put forth mostly tounge-in-cheek:

 

- Shooter hits the popper - anywhere above the hinge itself, even if all it does is scrape the paint off the very edge of the steel.

 

- Shooter requests calibration - BUT WAIT, there's a catch!

 

- The shooter must post a bond for the privilidge ... For the sake of discussion let's say $10 at a L1, $15 at a L2, $20 at a L3, or $25 at the Nationals  (Don't shoot me just yet!)

 

 - The RM is called and he follows the procedures (old, new, whatever is in the rules)

 

- If the shooter prevails in the challenge, he gets his bond back AND a reshoot.

 

- If the popper falls and is ruled properly calibrated (again, by whatever the rules state the procedure is) then he forfits his bond AND the stage is scored as shot.

 

Might reduce the number of "frivolous" calibration requests, might not ...

 

For those who think there is no precedence for this in any sport, consider the rules for throwing a red flag in the NFL.  If you prevail, you are allowed to do it again.  If you lose, you lose one of your challenges AND forfit a time out.

 

OK ... NOW you can shoot me.  (Remember I said this was MOSTLY tounge-in-cheek!)

 

So your proposal is to take a situation where the shooter has done nothing wrong and 99% of the time going to loose the call costing him several places in the match. And now it'll also cost him money too.

 

Doesn't seem like it fixes anything.

[Schutzenmeister]

12 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

So your proposal is to take a situation where the shooter has done nothing wrong and 99% of the time going to loose the call costing him several places in the match. And now it'll also cost him money too.

 

Doesn't seem like it fixes anything.

 

1 - Go back to my opening and closing lines ... TOUNGE-IN-CHEEK!

 

2 - Like many folks who have posted here already, I note that there are a significant number of folks who will call for calibration despite the fact they only hit the popper about 2 inches above the hinge and/or barely scratched the paint off the extreme edge of the popper.  MANY of them call for a calibration gambling on the RM screwing up the shot and they win the lottery.

 

I don't pretend to know in advance what the final outcome of Troy's new procedures will be, but anyone who has been in the sport for more than a day (or two) can attest to seeing calibrations requested as I just described.

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, Schutzenmeister said:

 

1 - Go back to my opening and closing lines ... TOUNGE-IN-CHEEK!

 

2 - Like many folks who have posted here already, I note that there are a significant number of folks who will call for calibration despite the fact they only hit the popper about 2 inches above the hinge and/or barely scratched the paint off the extreme edge of the popper.  MANY of them call for a calibration gambling on the RM screwing up the shot and they win the lottery.

 

I don't pretend to know in advance what the final outcome of Troy's new procedures will be, but anyone who has been in the sport for more than a day (or two) can attest to seeing calibrations requested as I just described.

 

Sure, I've even asked for calibration in those situations. But again the proposal doesn't address the problem which is when someone clearly center punches a popper with good ammo and looses calibration. If you've done this long enough you've probably come across a stage where after someone gets screwed the rest of your squad starts just doubling the popper for good measure. Or it's a activator so everyone shoots it down no matter what. And the RO's just shrug and say "I can't do anything unless you call for calibration" or " it passed when we shot it". 

[barry]

58 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Sure, I've even asked for calibration in those situations. But again the proposal doesn't address the problem which is when someone clearly center punches a popper with good ammo and looses calibration. If you've done this long enough you've probably come across a stage where after someone gets screwed the rest of your squad starts just doubling the popper for good measure. Or it's a activator so everyone shoots it down no matter what. And the RO's just shrug and say "I can't do anything unless you call for calibration" or " it passed when we shot it". 

A good R.O. will look at the popper and see if there is an obviously a problem and correct it the first time. Hell even a lousy R.O. will do this. First rule of being an R.O. should be don't be a dick. Anyone who's shot a lot of big matches the last 10 years knows there are a lot of dicks. Here in lies the problem.

[Racinready300ex]

10 minutes ago, barry said:

A good R.O. will look at the popper and see if there is an obviously a problem and correct it the first time. Hell even a lousy R.O. will do this. First rule of being an R.O. should be don't be a dick. Anyone who's shot a lot of big matches the last 10 years knows there are a lot of dicks. Here in lies the problem.

 

Exactly. 

[oddjob]

Please refresh my memory banks.... Was this always the case (the sentence I underlined)?

 

Thanks

 

c. The popper is left standing, and the competitor challenges the calibration.  In this case, the popper and the surrounding area on which it stands must not be touched, painted, or interfered with by any person.  If a Match Official violates this rule, the competitor must reshoot the course of fire.  If the competitor or any other person violates this rule, the popper will be scored as a miss and the rest of the course of fire will be scored “as shot”. If the popper falls for any non-interference reason (e.g. wind action), before it can be calibrated, Section 4.6 will apply and a reshoot must be ordered.

[Schutzenmeister]

9 minutes ago, oddjob said:

Please refresh my memory banks.... Was this always the case (the sentence I underlined)?

 

Thanks

 

c. The popper is left standing, and the competitor challenges the calibration.  In this case, the popper and the surrounding area on which it stands must not be touched, painted, or interfered with by any person.  If a Match Official violates this rule, the competitor must reshoot the course of fire.  If the competitor or any other person violates this rule, the popper will be scored as a miss and the rest of the course of fire will be scored “as shot”. If the popper falls for any non-interference reason (e.g. wind action), before it can be calibrated, Section 4.6 will apply and a reshoot must be ordered.

 

I didn't do a DEEP dive into antiquity, but a quick review of the 2008 rulebook shows those words were in fact present back then.  I don't know exactly WHEN they came into the rules, and I'm not disposed to dive THAT deeply into it.  Suffice it to say, that's been the rule for a LONG time.

[Boomstick303]

33 minutes ago, barry said:

A good R.O. will look at the popper and see if there is an obviously a problem and correct it the first time. Hell even a lousy R.O. will do this. First rule of being an R.O. should be don't be a dick. Anyone who's shot a lot of big matches the last 10 years knows there are a lot of dicks. Here in lies the problem.

 

NROI released a memo on this very topic a month or two ago for ROs to be diligent on Popper calibration, and for ROs to not be a dick if a shooter questions a Popper's calibration.  From the matches I have attended Level 1 - Level 3 I have asked ROs to check calibrations of Poppers that look like the may become an issue.  Its part or our job to bring those poppers to their attention, in that many times the ROs eyes are moving to where the shooter is shooting.  He is not watching how each popper falls during a course of fire until a popper does not fall when shot.  Typically Poppers tend to show signs of having issues way before someone gets Popper F%@ked (yes I know there are other issues like improperly set poppers).  I have yet to have an RO be a dick about Popper calibration.  If there was ever a case I would not hesitate to call the Range Master to address Poppers that may have a questionable Calibration.  Be honest, how many times have you or seen other shooters ask an RO check a Popper before someone gets screwed?  I have limited experience in big matches, but it has been few and almost non existent.  I do my best to point them out.  

[motosapiens]

3 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

So your proposal is to take a situation where the shooter has done nothing wrong and 99% of the time going to loose the call costing him several places in the match. And now it'll also cost him money too.

 

 

most of the time, for most calibrations, the shooter did in fact do something wrong, which is get an edge hit or a very low hit on a popper, and then want to waste everyone's time in hopes of getting a freebie if the RM makes a mistake.

[motosapiens]

1 minute ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

NROI released a memo on this very topic a month or two ago for ROs to be diligent on Popper calibration, and for ROs to not be a dick if a shooter questions a Popper's calibration.  From the matches I have attended Level 1 - Level 3 I have asked ROs to check calibrations of Poppers that look like the may become an issue.  Its part or our job to bring those poppers to their attention, in that many times the ROs eyes are moving to where the shooter is shooting.  He is not watching how each popper falls during a course of fire until a popper does not fall when shot.  Typically Poppers tend to show signs of having issues way before someone gets Popper F%@ked (yes I know there are other issues like improperly set poppers).  I have yet to have an RO be a dick about Popper calibration.  If there was ever a case I would not hesitate to call the Range Master to address Poppers that may have a questionable Calibration.  Be honest, how many times have you or seen other shooters ask an RO check a Popper before someone gets screwed?  I have limited experience in big matches, but it has been few and almost non existent.  I do my best to point them out.  

 

a couple years ago at A2 I asked the RO's about a problem popper, and they were dicks about it. They admitted they weren't checking the poppers at all until someone left one up and then won calibration (in the process, screwing over the shooters who took extra time or shots to drive it down). The only good thing about this whole situation is earlier in the day they totally screwed over the current A2 director, but then they stopped a young girl on the same squad because she hit the popper and it didn't go down, so they could fix it and have her re-shoot.  Kinda made it obvious to everyone that they were just being dicks.

[Boomstick303]

1 minute ago, motosapiens said:

They admitted they weren't checking the poppers

 

Was the Range Master called and/or a part of that decision?  

[motosapiens]

3 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Was the Range Master called and/or a part of that decision?  

 

I did get the rangemaster involved, and although he's a person I have worked with at Nats, and have great respect for, he declined to do anything about it (at least in my presence), and also declined to calibrate the popper before our squad shot, which is what I requested based on the unprofessional response from the RO's. 

 

Happily, the problem popper ended up going down on the first shot for everyone in our squad. That was one of the very few unfair poppers (and it was only due to poor RO's) that I have seen in a major match. All the other ones were also due only to poor RO's, btw.

Edited October 6, 2021 by motosapiens

[Boomstick303]

Just now, motosapiens said:

he declined to do anything

 

Doubt I would ever shoot a match he was match director at ever again then.  He obviously was being a dick.

[Racinready300ex]

25 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

most of the time, for most calibrations, the shooter did in fact do something wrong, which is get an edge hit or a very low hit on a popper, and then want to waste everyone's time in hopes of getting a freebie if the RM makes a mistake.

 

And in those cases I've yet to see them win calibration so I don't really care. What I care about are when it's hit right and it stays up and the shooter get's screwed. I've seen that happen a few times and it sucks. That part hits at the competitive equity of the sport and we shouldn't be okay with people getting screwed.

 

But many of us are. 

 

 

[twodownzero]

2 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

And in those cases I've yet to see them win calibration so I don't really care. What I care about are when it's hit right and it stays up and the shooter get's screwed. I've seen that happen a few times and it sucks. That part hits at the competitive equity of the sport and we shouldn't be okay with people getting screwed.

 

But many of us are. 

 

 

 

I'm not sure we shouldn't just apply the same rule to poppers that we apply to plates.  I don't see how the old calibration rules or even the new one make a bit of difference.  If someone gets a solid hit on steel and it doesn't go down, there's really no good ending to that scenario.  Either they get a mike if they left it up and the calibration doesn't go well or they don't ask for one, time is wasted shooting it again, or if the calibration challenge goes well, they get a reshoot, which is stressful and carries its own issues.  None of these are ideal and I'm yet undecided what the best one is.  I also don't know what recently occurred that caused the rule change, but if we're really revisiting the issue, we should ask ourselves how resetting a popper that is set too heavy, or had its mechanism not quite right, is fixing anything.

 

That said, I'm going to continue doing what I've always done if steel doesn't go down.  If I notice it, I'm just shooting it again.  That probably is the best thing you can do in that scenario anyway.  But I'm also not winning any titles anytime soon.

[Racinready300ex]

8 minutes ago, twodownzero said:

 

I'm not sure we shouldn't just apply the same rule to poppers that we apply to plates.  I don't see how the old calibration rules or even the new one make a bit of difference.  If someone gets a solid hit on steel and it doesn't go down, there's really no good ending to that scenario.  Either they get a mike if they left it up and the calibration doesn't go well or they don't ask for one, time is wasted shooting it again, or if the calibration challenge goes well, they get a reshoot, which is stressful and carries its own issues.  None of these are ideal and I'm yet undecided what the best one is.  I also don't know what recently occurred that caused the rule change, but if we're really revisiting the issue, we should ask ourselves how resetting a popper that is set too heavy, or had its mechanism not quite right, is fixing anything.

 

That said, I'm going to continue doing what I've always done if steel doesn't go down.  If I notice it, I'm just shooting it again.  That probably is the best thing you can do in that scenario anyway.  But I'm also not winning any titles anytime soon.

 

I don't know what the best solution is, I lean toward hit the calibration zone it doesn't fall reshoot the stage and have your ammo in mag checked at chrono. If the problem is RO's being lazy this will probably fix itself because they'll start maintaining their steel to avoid reshoots. 

 

I try to just shoot them down too, the problem is sometimes that might mean you have to wait to see the steel fall when you should be gone already.

[motosapiens]

26 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I don't know what the best solution is, I lean toward hit the calibration zone it doesn't fall reshoot the stage and have your ammo in mag checked at chrono. If the problem is RO's being lazy this will probably fix itself because they'll start maintaining their steel to avoid reshoots. 

 

I try to just shoot them down too, the problem is sometimes that might mean you have to wait to see the steel fall when you should be gone already.

in my experience a genuine popper problem happens far less often than two bullets through the same hole (equals alpha mike). Everyone is comfortable with the alpha mike, even tho it's the same competitive equity situation. The solution to the perceived popper problem is combination of various things. First, RO's need to take responsibility for keeping the steel adjusted properly, and identifying defective steel and removing it from the match. Second, shooters need to load hot enough and aim carefully enough to suit their level of comfort and risk, and stop being whiners.

 

If a popper is hit in the calibration zone and doesn't go down, that's not necessarily a problem. We all know there is significant variation in pf. We also shoot outdoors and know that wind exists (along with sun, rain, dust, etc....). 

 

I personally would never wait to see the steel fall if I called a good hit. That will cost you guaranteed time on almost every stage, whereas the defective popper may never actually happen to you. Even waiting around to make sure you didn't get an edge hit is going to make your average score significantly worse than eating a mike from time to time.

Edited October 6, 2021 by motosapiens

[Racinready300ex]

11 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

I personally would never wait to see the steel fall if I called a good hit. That will cost you guaranteed time on almost every stage, whereas the defective popper may never actually happen to you. Even waiting around to make sure you didn't get an edge hit is going to make your average score significantly worse than eating a mike from time to time.

 

This is really another subject but I think that depends doesn't it? It's another risk vs reward thing isn't it? I shot a match over the weekend I called the shot on the activator low, I transitioned away from it so I couldn't see if it feel. Before I left I looked, you can see the pause in my video. It feel, but had it been up I could of shot it down instead of getting to the last position and needing to either eat all the penalties or go back for it. 

 

If you never look, eventually you'll get caught. If you always look you're wasting time. Sometimes it's smart to waste a half second just in case. 

 

I've seen more poppers not fall than I have legit perfect doubles. I can think of one legit perfect double that I've shot, that got me a Alpha/Mike. But, after we fix popper calibration I'm open to talking about this problem too, it's not as simple or practical as fixing poppers but you could do it if you really wanted to. 

[motosapiens]

33 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

If you never look, eventually you'll get caught. If you always look you're wasting time. Sometimes it's smart to waste a half second just in case. 

 

Yes, you'll eventually get caught, but it will cost you far less time than standing there to watch the rest of the steel fall. One tidbit I learned from shooting with a world champ at a major match a few years ago was to take an extra 2-3 hundredths of a second on an activator to be *certain* it's a good shot, so you can execute the rest of the sequence with confidence. One of the really good pieces of advice I've ever had.

 

Quote

I've seen more poppers not fall than I have legit perfect doubles. I can think of one legit perfect double that I've shot, that got me a Alpha/Mike. But, after we fix popper calibration I'm open to talking about this problem too, it's not as simple or practical as fixing poppers but you could do it if you really wanted to. 

 

Sadly, I shoot too slowly and accurately sometimes. it's gotten me personally 3-4 times (you can see in video the shots hitting the exact same point on the berm), and there's an other 3-4 where the RM found enough to get me the hit. I don't stress about it. I just need to shoot those targets (typically a 3-5 yard partial) more aggressively. OTOH, I've never been screwed over by a popper. I've seen lots of other people *claim* to have been screwed over, but they almost all got marginal hits, and/or had marginal ammo. The A2 situation I mentioned earlier stands out as the pretty significant exception.

Edited October 6, 2021 by motosapiens

[ampleworks]

I think the change is welcome because even with good hits running about 145PF I've gotten screwed more than once.

 

We're going to be fighting a losing battle trying to set the steel at 22LR power factor as someone else mentioned. At some point wind will make it impossible for steel to stay up even in the lightest of breezes.

[Racinready300ex]

14 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

 One tidbit I learned from shooting with a world champ at a major match a few years ago was to take an extra 2-3 hundredths of a second on an activator to be *certain* it's a good shot, so you can execute the rest of the sequence with confidence. One of the really good pieces of advice I've ever had.

 

 

This is basically what I was saying, sometimes it pays to make sure it's falling. Especially if you're about to leave the position on a steel that activates. 

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

This is basically what I was saying, sometimes it pays to make sure it's falling. Especially if you're about to leave the position on a steel that activates. 

 

i'm talking about making sure I got a good hit, not hanging around to make sure it's falling. once I call a good shot, i move on.

[Racinready300ex]

29 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

i'm talking about making sure I got a good hit, not hanging around to make sure it's falling. once I call a good shot, i move on.

 

Hopefully some day I'll be on your level.

[IHAVEGAS]

Edit: Nevermind  

Edited October 7, 2021 by IHAVEGAS