New Popper Calibration Procedure

[BoyGlock]

1 hour ago, ima45dv8 said:

. How could my shot possibly be equivalent to the competitor's shot since he moved the steel, at least a little?

 

I'd vote to just knock it over on arrival, reset it, and only then take a shot at it. I haven't done it but that eliminate a lot of variables. 

 

Im ipsc and this is always my point. If hit and did not fall, the hit must have dislodged or disturbed the thing that prevented it to fall and when calibrated it will most probably fall. But the rules say not to touch or reset it after the shot and before cal. which make the cal. process unreasonable. 

[IHAVEGAS]

8 hours ago, Southpaw said:

I don't know source of the above quotes, but here's what NROI says about this:

 

https://nroi.org/rules-insights/popper-left-up-now-what/

 

Side issue, just a curiosity.

The person who wrote the referenced article was the instructor when I took the r.o. class.

When I came into the class I brought a couple questions with me that did not have a clear answer from my reading of the rules (dremeling maxwells on production guns prior to the production rules being revised was one of the questions, forgot the other one).

The instructor/author read the book the way I did and gave the answers I would have come to on my own. 

Later on Troy got involved and the instructors answers were said to be wrong. 

 

So, what I am wondering, are these "insights" articles to be taken as the gospel when they are not written by the head cheese? Perhaps they are approved by him prior to publishing?

[BritinUSA]

I do not think it's possible to create a popper calibration process that works for every situation. Even a partial hit on the popper could change its position/alignment.

 

The root cause of this issue in my opinion is that the requirements have changed beyond the reliability of the design. Lower power factors, lighter bullets, trying to shift a huge steel object. 

 

Just ditch the damn things and use plates instead, if they are hit (even partial) and do not fall then it should be a REF. There's no reason why a suitable design cannot be found that can reliably activate moving targets from a plate.

 

Easier to set up, cheaper to make, lighter and more reliable.

[motosapiens]

On 10/19/2021 at 8:14 AM, varminter22 said:

Agreed.  And in view of the rule concerning calibration ammuntion and firearm(s), and the fact that Level 1 matches are not exempt from said rule, it seems the shooter should have been allowed a reshoot.  

there is nothing in the rules to support automatically giving a reshoot just because you don't have official calibration ammo. and in fact, giving automatic reshoots would be a severe violation of the principle of competitive equity, because everyone knows that the vast majority of calibration challenges are edge hits or low hits that should in fact be scored as a mike.

 

I personally have calibration ammo, and if you feel strongly about this issue, I recommend 2 courses of action for your local matches:

1. load your own calibration ammo, or bring a shorter barreled gun (like a compact carry gun) that will make lower pf with your standard match ammo.

2. inspect the poppers on every stage to make sure they are set so they will easily fall for a good hit.

 

I do both of the above and as a result our club has no issues whatsoever with poppers, and no internet whining about them.

[motosapiens]

3 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

Just ditch the damn things and use plates instead, if they are hit (even partial) and do not fall then it should be a REF. There's no reason why a suitable design cannot be found that can reliably activate moving targets from a plate.

 

 

worst idea ever. This is why I didn't vote for you for president.  Poppers currently work fine as long as RO's do a non-terrible job. Partial hits *should* be scored as a mike. Whiners should shoot more accurately.

[motosapiens]

6 hours ago, BoyGlock said:

Im ipsc and this is always my point. If hit and did not fall, the hit must have dislodged or disturbed the thing that prevented it to fall and when calibrated it will most probably fall. But the rules say not to touch or reset it after the shot and before cal. which make the cal. process unreasonable. 

That is very very rarely the case, but occasionally (i've seen it twice in 10 years), that is the case. Both times with forward fallers. Fortunately the new calibration process fixes that issue, but imho is redundant.  I suspect that after a few months there will be sufficient anecdotal data to decide whether shooting the popper for inspecting and resetting it is really necessary.

Edited October 20, 2021 by motosapiens

[varminter22]

10 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

there is nothing in the rules to support automatically giving a reshoot just because you don't have official calibration ammo. and in fact, giving automatic reshoots would be a severe violation of the principle of competitive equity, because everyone knows that the vast majority of calibration challenges are edge hits or low hits that should in fact be scored as a mike.

 

I personally have calibration ammo, and if you feel strongly about this issue, I recommend 2 courses of action for your local matches:

1. load your own calibration ammo, or bring a shorter barreled gun (like a compact carry gun) that will make lower pf with your standard match ammo.

2. inspect the poppers on every stage to make sure they are set so they will easily fall for a good hit.

 

I do both of the above and as a result our club has no issues whatsoever with poppers, and no internet whining about them.

You seem to think this was my club match or I was the MD.  It was not.  I was not.  

 

There is also nothing in the rules as to what to do when the MD has not complied with App C1.  

 

However, your insight is astounding.  

Edited October 20, 2021 by varminter22

[motosapiens]

2 minutes ago, varminter22 said:

However, your insight is astounding.  

there is no charge for this service. 

 

At our local matches, everyone takes an active part in making sure the match is fair, even if it's a different club, or they are not the MD. I have never actually been the MD of a USPSA match, but that doesn't stop me from checking and adjusting poppers on every stage, or calibrating steel when required.

[varminter22]

22 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

LOL

 

That is all well and fine, as long as the MD has authorized you to do so.  

 

App C1:

The MD must designate a specific supply of ammuntion and one or more firearms to be used as official calibration tools by officials authorized by him to serve as calibration officers.  

Edited October 20, 2021 by varminter22

[IHAVEGAS]

37 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

because everyone knows that the vast majority of calibration challenges are edge hits or low hits that should in fact be scored as a mike.

 

I guess I am not part of 'everyone'. In my opinion if you hit the target anywhere in the calibration zone with legal ammo then you have done your job and should always get your 5 points. 

 

I have no problem at all with your opinion of how things should be, if they ever make it clear in the rules that your opinion (or mine) is the right one I think the dispute would die. 

[motosapiens]

35 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

I guess I am not part of 'everyone'. In my opinion if you hit the target anywhere in the calibration zone with legal ammo then you have done your job and should always get your 5 points. 

 

if you're talking about a full-diameter hit, then I almost agree with you. Partial diameter hits can just suck it. But the fact is that it's perfectly legal to shoot subminor ammo, as long as you can get the average of the hottest 42% of your ammo to hit 125pf. That means that some people are going to get a full-diameter hit low in the calibration zone with a sub-minor round. That's legal, but they should still get the mike if the popper doesn't fall. That's how the rules are written, and the current system works perfectly as long as RO's pay a little bit of attention to their task. If that makes some people sad, they should just aim better and load hotter. Accuracy mattters. Power matters.

Edited October 20, 2021 by motosapiens

[motosapiens]

50 minutes ago, varminter22 said:

LOL

 

That is all well and fine, as long as the MD has authorized you to do so.  

 

App C1:

The MD must designate a specific supply of ammuntion and one or more firearms to be used as official calibration tools by officials authorized by him to serve as calibration officers.  

 

You guys have a strange way of doing things. Everyone here works together and cooperates, and regardless of who is handling the administrative part of the MD duties (preparing the scoring devices, unlocking the target shed, etc....) all the experienced people pitch in on making sure the stages are legal and scoring/rules disputes are resolved satisfactorily.

[motosapiens]

double-tap

Edited October 20, 2021 by motosapiens

[varminter22]

5 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

You guys have a strange way of doing things. Everyone here works together and cooperates, and regardless of who is handling the administrative part of the MD duties (preparing the scoring devices, unlocking the target shed, etc....) all the experienced people pitch in on making sure the stages are legal and scoring/rules disputes are resolved satisfactorily.

You guys?  

 

Did I not make it perfectly clear this was NOT my match nor was I in any way affiliated?  

 

Working together is, of course, virtually mandatory.  It takes lot to make it all happen.  

 

Funny, however, how some here champion the rules, then not-so-much on some issues (like this one!)  

[IHAVEGAS]

9 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

That means that some people are going to get a full-diameter hit low in the calibration zone with a sub-minor round. That's legal, but they should still get the mike if the popper doesn't fall. That's how the rules are written,

 

If the rules clearly state that a hit in the calibration zone with match legal ammunition should not drop a popper 100% of the time, I just flat can't find it. 

[motosapiens]

3 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

If the rules clearly state that a hit in the calibration zone with match legal ammunition should not drop a popper 100% of the time, I just flat can't find it. 

sounds like you are trolling. the rules don't literally state that, but they also don't state that a hit in the calibration zone with match legal ammunition *should* drop a popper. They simply state what the procedure is when the popper doesn't fall. If you do some math, or observe some matches, you find that the unsurprising effect of the current rules is that the lighter you go with your ammo, and the worse you aim, the better your chances are of hitting a popper and still being scored a mike. IMHO, that's how it was designed, and that's how it should be. Power matters. Accuracy matters.

[motosapiens]

8 minutes ago, varminter22 said:

You guys?  

 

Did I not make it perfectly clear this was NOT my match nor was I in any way affiliated?  

 

Working together is, of course, virtually mandatory.  It takes lot to make it all happen.  

 

Funny, however, how some here champion the rules, then not-so-much on some issues (like this one!)  

sounds like you are making a complaint about the way some club runs things some where. That is interesting, but not really that relevant to the discussion.

[twodownzero]

Maybe the rule should just change to steel must fall to score.  If the RO doesn't call "stop" and there isn't any obvious range equipment failure, then maybe it should just be scored as shot.

 

I'm not sure what the ideal rule is, but the new one that involves resetting the popper is not it.

[varminter22]

12 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

sounds like you are making a complaint about the way some club runs things some where. That is interesting, but not really that relevant to the discussion.

Wow, you're really something.  

 

I apologize.  I thought I made it clear the incident happened at a match I attended and shot (which, incidentally, was about 400 miles from my home).  Which makes it absolutely, 100% relevant.  

 

And its not just "some club, somewhere" as one can clearly ascertain from others' comments herein.  

Edited October 20, 2021 by varminter22

[motosapiens]

7 minutes ago, twodownzero said:

 

I'm not sure what the ideal rule is, but the new one that involves resetting the popper is not it.

why not? The old procedure was pretty good, but the new one is clearly an improvement over the older procedure in that it will help reduce the already very small number of 'popper-f****ings' caused be mechanically defective poppers.

[motosapiens]

6 minutes ago, varminter22 said:

 

I apologize.  I thought I made it clear the incident happened at a match I attended and shot (which, incidentally, was about 400 miles from my home).  Which makes it absolutely, 100% relevant.  

 

that question was already answered. your reshoot was imho properly denied. it is unfortunate that the RO didnt have subminor ammo, and it's also unfortunate that the match didn't have chrono so we would know your average pf, but it appears to be the way things normally happen. I don't recall if your hit was a full-diameter hit, or if it was in the calibration zone, but at least with the new calibration procedures, the popper gets reset and shot again, so if there really is something wrong with the popper (as opposed to your power or accuracy) there is a good chance of getting a reshoot.

 

OTOH, if your hit was marginal, or your ammo marginal..... bummer.

[twodownzero]

18 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

why not? The old procedure was pretty good, but the new one is clearly an improvement over the older procedure in that it will help reduce the already very small number of 'popper-f****ings' caused be mechanically defective poppers.

 

Because the entire point of the old procedure was to recreate what the competitor did, and now we're resetting the popper.  Not touching it or messing with it at all was part of what we were testing.  Now we're just testing if a sub minor hit will send it down (twice), which isn't the same thing.

Edited October 20, 2021 by twodownzero

[varminter22]

13 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

that question was already answered. your reshoot was imho properly denied. it is unfortunate that the RO didnt have subminor ammo, and it's also unfortunate that the match didn't have chrono so we would know your average pf, but it appears to be the way things normally happen. I don't recall if your hit was a full-diameter hit, or if it was in the calibration zone, but at least with the new calibration procedures, the popper gets reset and shot again, so if there really is something wrong with the popper (as opposed to your power or accuracy) there is a good chance of getting a reshoot.

 

OTOH, if your hit was marginal, or your ammo marginal..... bummer.

And we've all noted your humble opinion.  

 

Unfortunately for you, USPSA does not agree with your opinion.  

 

Thanks for opining.  

Edited October 20, 2021 by varminter22

[motosapiens]

7 minutes ago, varminter22 said:

And we've all noted your humble opinion.  

 

Unfortunately for you, USPSA does not agree with your opinion.  

 

USPSA appears to agree with my opinion, based on reading the rules, discussion with troy and other RMI's and reading troy's article on the topic.

[motosapiens]

13 minutes ago, twodownzero said:

 

Because the entire point of the old procedure was to recreate what the competitor did, and now we're resetting the popper.  Not touching it or messing with it at all was part of what we were testing.  Now we're just testing if a sub minor hit will send it down (twice), which isn't the same thing.

you seem to entirely misunderstand the old procedure, and perhaps the new one as well.

first, under the old procedure, not touching it before the shot entirely *prevented* recreating what the competitor did, because the popper may not be in the same state after being hit once.

 

second, now we're still doing the first shot, exactly as before, but we're adding in the second step of resetting the popper so that we *can* recreate what the competitor did.