Index finger around the trigger guard- who uses this grip and why??

[Boomstick303]

I do not shoot with my support hand fingers over the front of the trigger guard but I did learn over the last couple of years to shoot with both my index and middle finger making contact to the bottom of the trigger guard when shooting my X5s. I felt this let me get a higher purchase on the gun with my support hand. It works fine. I have found it’s not optimal when shooting many different platforms. The grip angle, trigger gaurds length, etc. is so different from gun to gun I found it does not make sense to keep shooting with this grip.  Once Carry Optics Nationals are over I will be trianing a new grip. Will it suck?  Yup.  Will it feel super unnatural?  Yup.  Is it the correct decision?  100%. 

[Farmer]

8 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

To be brutally honest, that depends on what kind of shooting you've done and how open are you to learning.

 

I've seen people make the same claim as you who clearly don't know much.  Their performance behind the gun can't back up their claims.

I’m always willing to learn, that’s why I hang around here. All my shooting has been informal, never been to a range, took a course ect. Always been self taught, trial & error or through reading and now internet. Grew up in the times that you always had a gun with you, either handgun, shotgun or rifle.  Have loaded pretty much everything I shoot with exception of rim fire and an occasional box of shotgun shells. Always wanted to do a Fun House shoot but never did and USPSA is the closest to that but seems much safer and easier to set up. Will probably never get to a match but am working on setting up a stage on my farm to practice on and just have some fun with my limited time. How’s that for brutally honest?

Edited September 23, 2021 by Farmer

[Dr. Phil]

Wow. Nice to hear from the experts who say you can't shoot to your best ability this way! I guess I should turn in my M cards and learn to shoot correctly.

Hopefully Jerry (autos), Lena (2 fingers), Rich (2 fingers) and a dozen or so other world class shooters will read this and correct themselves! But hey, they probably didn't even know that being successful and shooting the way you want to shoot doesn't sit well with the experts. Some were taught this way. (Very popular in the mid 80s) Some shoot this way because of physical reasons. Some just think it's cool. Some are very happy with it. Some see it, try it and keep it. Some don't.

And some are not believers. You will probably not make GM using it. And then again maybe you will. Or maybe you won't anyway?

I still use a modified Weaver stance. For shame!

I still use a "revolver " grip. Thumbs down and locked together. Awful.

Many of the Isosceles have modified their grips somewhat. Many are awesome shooters!

Who fricken' cares where your thumbs and fingers are?

Shoot the way that makes you happy. Try it, change it and make it yours. Or don't. 

Bruce Lee said to try everything. Keep what works for you. But then I guess he was only moderately successful.

 

This, IMHO, is the question to ask in order to start an internet argument. Or what's the best press to load on? Or what's the best mag pouch? Or what makes a perfect day?

Etc, Etc, Etc, Etc

[MHicks]

In all sports there are techniques that have been found to work for the highest percentage of people. Then there are people who will master a different technique but if you tried to teach it to everyone you may see a lower percentage of success.

 

Willie  Mays used to drop his hands down low below his belt as the pitch was coming towards the plate and of course he was one of the all time best hitters and players. But he was Willie Mays. You'd never teach that batting technique to a young new player.

[CHA-LEE]

1 hour ago, Dr. Phil said:

Wow. Nice to hear from the experts who say you can't shoot to your best ability this way! I guess I should turn in my M cards and learn to shoot correctly.

Hopefully Jerry (autos), Lena (2 fingers), Rich (2 fingers) and a dozen or so other world class shooters will read this and correct themselves! But hey, they probably didn't even know that being successful and shooting the way you want to shoot doesn't sit well with the experts. Some were taught this way. (Very popular in the mid 80s) Some shoot this way because of physical reasons. Some just think it's cool. Some are very happy with it. Some see it, try it and keep it. Some don't.

And some are not believers. You will probably not make GM using it. And then again maybe you will. Or maybe you won't anyway?

I still use a modified Weaver stance. For shame!

I still use a "revolver " grip. Thumbs down and locked together. Awful.

Many of the Isosceles have modified their grips somewhat. Many are awesome shooters!

Who fricken' cares where your thumbs and fingers are?

Shoot the way that makes you happy. Try it, change it and make it yours. Or don't. 

Bruce Lee said to try everything. Keep what works for you. But then I guess he was only moderately successful.

 

This, IMHO, is the question to ask in order to start an internet argument. Or what's the best press to load on? Or what's the best mag pouch? Or what makes a perfect day?

Etc, Etc, Etc, Etc

 

The primary reason why "The Pro's" don't get on forums like this is that they would rather spend their time honing their skills than trying to justify their stance or process to a bunch of people who will never put in the amount of work needed to really understand why things need to be done a certain way for success. I can't fault them for avoiding the online howler monkey show and focusing their efforts elsewhere.

[Dr. Phil]

1 hour ago, CHA-LEE said:

 

The primary reason why "The Pro's" don't get on forums like this is that they would rather spend their time honing their skills than trying to justify their stance or process to a bunch of people who will never put in the amount of work needed to really understand why things need to be done a certain way for success. I can't fault them for avoiding the online howler monkey show and focusing their efforts elsewhere.

True dat. And BTW I agree.

I was referring to the several experts who have already weighed in.

Hard to understand how you tell somebody who has already reached their own personal level of expertise (whatever that level may be to them) that this way or that way won't doesn't or can't work. Some want to win some local matches. Cool. Some want to win a National. Fine. Some want GM or sponsorship. Whatever. I love to shoot. I mostly love to practice. 6 days a week, in season, and I have my own goals. When they are met it's pretty hard to listen to the "can't work" nonsense. Of course YMMV.

It was meant to be sarcasm amigo.  FWIW

[barry]

1 hour ago, CHA-LEE said:

 

The primary reason why "The Pro's" don't get on forums like this is that they would rather spend their time honing their skills than trying to justify their stance or process to a bunch of people who will never put in the amount of work needed to really understand why things need to be done a certain way for success. I can't fault them for avoiding the online howler monkey show and focusing their efforts elsewhere.

Funny I'm looking at the front sight article on the 1996 nationals (yes I've been doing this that long) and see a picture of Jerry Barnhart shooting this way as he wins the match. Glad he didn't know he was wrong or he might have stayed home.

[konkapot]

When did this forum get so snarky? Did it happen suddenly or gradually?

[Dr. Phil]

Wow! The Burner!! Jerry was my favorite for many years! I even forgot he shot that way too!

Reminds me of the old days in F-Ville Barry!!!

[barry]

Had the pleasure of squading with him a time or two and ro ing him a bunch of times. Was always good guy.

[Dr. Phil]

He had come back to shooting a couple years ago. He was not wearing any sponsor gear. He was still fast in Steel Challenge. I haven't heard anything about him in awhile now except he is doing training. Nothing recent about competition.

[GrumpyOne]

I'm only going to post this once, if it has to be brought up again, this thread will get locked.

 

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[GrumpyOne]

In art, there are many masters, Vermeer, Van Gogh, Rembrandt, Da Vinci, just to name a few. They all had certain things in common, namely practice and patience

 

Many great artist (and future masters!) followed the techniques laid down by those before them, but just as the masters mentioned above, they modified those techniques to suit their strengths, weaknesses, or needs. Just because they modified those techniques or found a different way to see or express something does not make them any less of a master. 

 

If every artist followed the same path as every other artist, there would be no innovation, no art, as everything would be the same. 

 

Just because someone has found a method that works for them does not mean that it will work for everyone, nor does it mean that a method that works for many people will work for every person. 

[stick]

I tried it a few years ago because I have long fingers and thought it would help with recoil management.  I eventually ended up going back to the standard thumbs forward grip.  I didn't like how it wouldn't let me lock my wrist in the position I wanted to use.

FWIW if it works for you, use it!

[testosterone]

Jerry miculek does that grip with plastic guns, i have heard him say somewhere i think he is actually hooking side pressure?  

Rich wolfe who is on any given sunday the best revolver shooter also does that grip.

Eric apparently does not teach this grip nor does he recommend anyone do it.

[NotAnAddict]

On 9/1/2021 at 7:58 AM, CHA-LEE said:

A lot of shooters with poor grip angles are essentially shooting Strong Hand only because their support hand CAN'T do the job it needs to do. That is a bitter pill to swallow for most when they hear it.

 

This is true. My support hand is weak.

 

[UpYoursPal]

There's a very talented shooter in this area named Luke Cao who uses that grip.

Edited October 4, 2021 by UpYoursPal

[Dr. Phil]

I was watching the 2010 A-Team movie earlier. 

The "agent" (played by Jessica Biel) uses that grip too!

That proves it!

So there.

[GrumpyOne]

Was looking for a video for Dranoel and came across this.

 

Snippet from the web page.

"This was back in the days of single stack 1911 pistols with single port compensators, like this old gun of mine. I had a stainless steel hook welded onto the frame, because during this time, it was popular to shoot with the index finger of the support hand wrapped around the trigger guard – something local shooter (and two time World Speed Shooting Champion) Chip McCormick did."

 

 

Pic is of the authors 1911 in 1989?

 

https://blog.krtraining.com/1989-texas-challenge-uspsa-match/

[Dr. Phil]

now that is one FINE 1911!

I heard of that McCormic guy once or twice.

[JTran253]

On 8/25/2021 at 2:31 PM, TheChewycookie said:

I use it due to the ergos of my arm. I have tried using a traditional grip and found that the traditional grip would cause unreasonable strain in my forearm muscles throughout a day of shooting. I haven't tried going back recently, but knowing what I do now I might be able to make it work, and maybe those muscles have become more flexible than what they previously were.

 

My key tip to a finger front grip is hitting the right position with your weak hand both under the trigger guard with your middle finger and base of your palm on the grip frame. The weak index finger should also just "sit" on the trigger guard rather than flexing to hold the trigger guard down.

If the weak index finger is just sitting and not flexing to hold the trigger guard down, what is the point of having it there in the first place? You're basically turning off 20% of your weak hand grip

[SGT_Schultz]

37 minutes ago, JTran253 said:

If the weak index finger is just sitting and not flexing to hold the trigger guard down, what is the point of having it there in the first place? You're basically turning off 20% of your weak hand grip

 

I'm sure it'll make a comeback any day now..........just wait.

[TheChewycookie]

On 10/19/2021 at 10:43 PM, JTran253 said:

If the weak index finger is just sitting and not flexing to hold the trigger guard down, what is the point of having it there in the first place? You're basically turning off 20% of your weak hand grip

I think most of us can agree that adding directional forces to a part of the gun that isn't where the hands typically go (side or front of trigger guard, the "index point" where the support thumb goes, etc.) will cause a deviation of where the bullet impacts on/off target. If you have the steadiest hands in the world while pulling a trigger then by all means add that pressure. I don't have the steadiest hands, I don't know if I have a small fraction of co-sympathetic movement between both hands. What I do know is that I am currently unable to get through a local match without severe strain in my left forearm using a traditional or more Vogel-style canted grip. I had to look for an alternative option that would allow me to get through a full day of shooting (such as a 12 stage field course ridden level 2 or 3). 

 

I am using this grip due to 1) genetics - my brother also cannot shoot a full day without similar strain in the forearm with a traditional grip, and 2) I had a sprain in my left forearm when I was really young causing some inflexibility in the muscles and tendon in there. I'm working with what I have available to me.

 

The grip also feels more natural to me because I was a trombone player throughout middle and high school. Below is the trombone I was using given by a family friend; it dates to about the 60s-70s and if you have to ask I graduated high school 2013.

 

[lgh]

10 hours ago, TheChewycookie said:

an alternative option that would allow me to get through a full day of shooting (such as a 12 stage field course ridden level 2 or 3).

Eric Grauffel also said one reason he uses that grip is because there is less fatigue on long days.

[bimmer1980]

On 10/22/2021 at 3:08 PM, lgh said:

Eric Grauffel also said one reason he uses that grip is because there is less fatigue on long days.

Grauffel´s finger doesn´t do anything. He uses a push & pull grip, wich comes from the shoulders. One´s pushing one´s pulling, just a little bit. 

Or one is holding, one is pushing or pulling.

 

If you use a "normal" clamping grip with your support hand, you loose one finger and with that a lot of clamping force if you doesn´t use the finger to create leverage somehow. 

 

After all i think, there is just one important "thing" that has to be achieved. None of your hands should slip, so they can work as a unit. To make your supporthand not slip, when gripping your gun from the side, while it´s recoiling violently up&down and back, you need a lot of force and/or a lot of stickieness. Meanwhile your shooting hand doesn´t need much force, because it´s on the regular grip, gripping front to back. You can hold the gun super soft, without coming of the grip. That´s where the wrist´s come into play, but thats a different story.  

Edited October 27, 2021 by bimmer1980