I wish Production wasn't dying

[RJH]

19 minutes ago, waktasz said:

 

Single Stack has been dead since day one

That is hurtful

 

SS and limited are my favorite divisions, but when shooting SS, I just look at the overalls cause that is all you got

[Bakerjd]

37 minutes ago, RJH said:

That is hurtful

 

SS and limited are my favorite divisions, but when shooting SS, I just look at the overalls cause that is all you got

Up in MI we have a fair number of decent SS shooters (about 10) and usually about 4 or 5 show up at each match. It's not a great turnout but from what I've read on FB and here it's a pretty good turnout. I'll probably get back to a hicap gun next year except for maybe a Locap only match we have every year here now. 

[waktasz]

Thats a huge turnout. The Mid Atlantic Section match had 275 shooters and 5 people in SS 

[MHicks]

3 hours ago, StuckinMS said:

Single stack is suffering too. My son loves it, but the competition is drying up. Hi capacity optics divisions have crushed the production and single stack divisions for sure. 

The recent big matches I've shot about 2/3 of the shooters are using an optic. PCC, Open and Carry optics. I signed up for a couple of upcoming bigger matches in Limited but changed to SS because there are a couple of other SS shooters that I like to shoot against. Plus I still like my SS gun the best.

[nasty618]

On 6/13/2021 at 9:07 PM, waktasz said:

Single Stack has been dead since day one

 

It's a long time to be dead and yet still be kicking. I think maybe reports of Single Stack death were greatly exaggerated. 

Make Single Stack Great Again.

[Fishbreath]

On 6/13/2021 at 10:13 PM, waktasz said:

Thats a huge turnout. The Mid Atlantic Section match had 275 shooters and 5 people in SS 

 

That's pretty wild. The two majors on my list for the end of the year (Battle for the North Coast in OH and the VA state match) have 4 and 5 Revolver shooters, respectively.

[waktasz]

That's a solid turnout too. This match had 2

[davidb72]

I been shooting production with a bone stock Gen 5 Glock 17 for the past year.

It's nice to shoot something so simple that just works and needs no maintenance.

I may get my single stack guns tuned up for next year tho - thinking about shooting single stack minor all year. I miss having the magwell and the nice trigger.

[Racinready300ex]

I signed up for A8 and noticed SS has a solid turn out there @ 21 out of the 570 shooters registered. Of course CO and Open have more M's then SS has shooters.  And just for comparison SS Nat's had 125 shooters, and CO at A8 has 166 registered. 

 

If production is dying, SS must be dead. 

[Jeff226]

On 6/13/2021 at 4:44 PM, BritinUSA said:

With three of the four main divisions utilizing hi-capacity guns, the match directors/stage designers are catering for the most popular divisions. If they had kept CO at 10 rounds then there would be almost an equal number of hi-cap/lo-cap shooters at most matches, so the stage designs would reflect that.

 

It’s the law of unintended consequences; They wrecked the balance that existed in the four main divisions.

That balance doesn't matter.  With the 8 round maximum shots from a position, all matches cater to all allowed capacities.  

 

The only thing keeping CO at 10 rounds would have accomplished is to make less people want to shoot it and/or more people continuing to push for it to be 140mm.  If people overwhelmingly want hicap divisions (which they do) having one HiCap and 7 low cap isn't going to result in 16% hicap and 84% lowcap shooters...not even close.

 

[motosapiens]

On 6/16/2021 at 5:59 AM, Jeff226 said:

That balance doesn't matter.  With the 8 round maximum shots from a position, all matches cater to all allowed capacities.  

 

 

that's not really what the rule says. within what the rule *does* say, there are lots of ways to screw over and annoy lo-cap shooters. I personally work hard to avoid such situations in my stages, but that's because I shoot SS for 2-3 months every year so I think about it.

[Racinready300ex]

On 6/16/2021 at 7:59 AM, Jeff226 said:

That balance doesn't matter.  With the 8 round maximum shots from a position, all matches cater to all allowed capacities.  

 

 

That's not how that works. You can have 30 shots available from one position as long as they are also available from several other positions so that you're not required to take more than 8 shots from that position. I have shot a bunch of stages at level 2 and 3 matches that had me shooting a dozen rounds or more from one positions.

[Jeff226]

23 hours ago, motosapiens said:

that's not really what the rule says. within what the rule *does* say, there are lots of ways to screw over and annoy lo-cap shooters. I personally work hard to avoid such situations in my stages, but that's because I shoot SS for 2-3 months every year so I think about it.

 

23 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

That's not how that works. You can have 30 shots available from one position as long as they are also available from several other positions so that you're not required to take more than 8 shots from that position. I have shot a bunch of stages at level 2 and 3 matches that had me shooting a dozen rounds or more from one positions.

Yes, but you know what I meant, more than 8 scoring hits can not be required from a position...which means all divisions are "catered" to in course design that follows the rules.  No division requires a capacity below 8.  

 

"Pick the division you like and shoot in it".  If a match favors limited and you are shooting single stack...so what?  All of the other single stacks are shooting the same course.  I thought everybody here wanted locap for the challenge/competition anyhow.

[Fishbreath]

3 hours ago, Jeff226 said:

which means all divisions are "catered" to in course design that follows the rules

 

It doesn't, though. It's easy to design stages that follow the letter of the rule but have obvious positions where you'd want to shoot more than eight rounds.

 

Here's one:

 

You have eight-round arrays out the two ports, and a target at the uprange end of the stage that is technically available from anywhere, but you know that anyone with more than 8 rounds in the gun is going to hit a reload running hard and take that target on the way in, while people in 8-round divisions are going to have to reload on the move, hit the target on the move, reload again, and finish the stage.

[Boot]

Maybe

[Jeff226]

13 hours ago, Fishbreath said:

 

It doesn't, though. It's easy to design stages that follow the letter of the rule but have obvious positions where you'd want to shoot more than eight rounds.

 

Here's one:

 

You have eight-round arrays out the two ports, and a target at the uprange end of the stage that is technically available from anywhere, but you know that anyone with more than 8 rounds in the gun is going to hit a reload running hard and take that target on the way in, while people in 8-round divisions are going to have to reload on the move, hit the target on the move, reload again, and finish the stage.

Who cares?  Everybody in the division is shooting the same stage.  You typed out the plan for an 8 round shooter so apparently even that stage caters to them as required by the rules.  Most PCC and open shooters can shoot the stage without reloading at all.  That doesn't affect people in revolver division.   

 

 

If you "want" to shoot more rounds, then pick a division/gun that allows more rounds.  I don't really "want" to shoot at swingers and crawl in tunnels but it is allowed in the rules.  Maybe I "want" to shoot that whole stage without reloading in limited...oh well. 

 

[BritinUSA]

With many clubs running mostly large courses, anyone shooting SS or Production is going to be reloading multiple times in a stage and after a while this will may repetitive. Especially if magazines have to be cleaned each time
 

If clubs used a 3-2-1 formula (like IPSC) then there would likely be only a single stage where multiple reloads would be required. 
 

This would also reduce the round-count of matches. It could also lead to a situation where a match could be finished before lunch-time, which opens the possibility of two waves of shooters - and a doubling of match revenue.

[MemphisMechanic]

57 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

With many clubs running mostly large courses, anyone shooting SS or Production is going to be reloading multiple times in a stage and after a while this will may repetitive. Especially if magazines have to be cleaned each time
 

If clubs used a 3-2-1 formula (like IPSC) then there would likely be only a single stage where multiple reloads would be required. 

Nobody shooting Production minds reloading 3 to 4 times per stage. In fact, we’re all about that life.

 

We loathe when lazy stage designers make us do two of those reloads flat-footed in a high hit-factor stage because they only think with a 23-round mindset.

 

Typically it would only require someone to move 1 or 2 targets to turn such a stage into something fantastic for *all* divisions to shoot. In fact, that often results in the SS & Production guys having 2 or 3 ways to attack things, which should be any stage designer’s goal.

 

When I’m shooting Carry Optics, I’m just as disappointed in a stage that has 18 rounds visible from one location. It just comes from a different direction.

 

Edited June 19, 2021 by MemphisMechanic

[Jeff226]

I'd rather have less stages than less rounds per stage but I can't see rushing through abbreviated matches to add a second wave doubling revenue.  Quite the opposite.  In addition to the people put off by low round counts, who is going to want to shoot in an afternoon wave in the summer especially in the south?

 

There is no way I would be entering many matches full of 20 rd stages.  Most people I know feel the same way...part of the reason we don't do more IDPA.  I am already questioning the value of standing around for 30 minutes to an hour per stage to shoot 28-32 rounds.

[RJH]

Damn, lots of opinions here. I shoot mainly ss, Lim, and fixing to start co, though I tend to like SS the best. Just set mostly  legal stages and I will be happy regardless. And I say mostly legal cause I don't really GAF anymore as long as it is not something completely stupid like you see in 3 gun  sometimes. Keep it free style and get out of the way and let's shoot. 

[SGT_Schultz]

1 hour ago, RJH said:

Just set mostly  legal stages and I will be happy regardless. And I say mostly legal cause I don't really GAF anymore as long as it is not something completely stupid like you see in 3 gun  sometimes. Keep it free style and get out of the way and let's shoot. 

+1

Edited June 19, 2021 by SGT_Schultz

[PatJones]

5 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

If clubs used a 3-2-1 formula (like IPSC) then there would likely be only a single stage where multiple reloads would be required. .

I've always wondered how you do a 3-2-1 and keep the squads moving thru the stages without backing things up.

[BritinUSA]

It seems to defy logic doesn’t it.. At a World Shoot they use this formula and there are rarely backups, at least in the matches I shot.
 

They run around 2,5 minutes per shooter regardless of the stage, so I guess the RO’s in the smaller stages will take a more relaxed posture, as long as everyone keeps to the 5 minute walkthrough and 2.5 minute per shooter then everything balances.

 

Six stages, squads of 12 people = 30 minutes of walkthroughs + (72 x 2 .5 minutes), 210 minutes.. 3.5 hours and done.

[Fishbreath]

7 hours ago, Jeff226 said:

Who cares?  Everybody in the division is shooting the same stage.  You typed out the plan for an 8 round shooter so apparently even that stage caters to them as required by the rules.  Most PCC and open shooters can shoot the stage without reloading at all.  That doesn't affect people in revolver division.  

 

If you "want" to shoot more rounds, then pick a division/gun that allows more rounds.  I don't really "want" to shoot at swingers and crawl in tunnels but it is allowed in the rules.  Maybe I "want" to shoot that whole stage without reloading in limited...oh well. 

 

NROI has said that it's wrong (not against the rules, but undesirable) to handicap PCCs by requiring more difficult starts for rifle shooters. In the same way, it seems wrong to me to handicap locap divisions by building stages that have positions where anyone with two brain cells to rub together would be shooting 11+ rounds.

[RJH]

12 minutes ago, Fishbreath said:

 

NROI has said that it's wrong (not against the rules, but undesirable) to handicap PCCs by requiring more difficult starts for rifle shooters. In the same way, it seems wrong to me to handicap locap divisions by building stages that have positions where anyone with two brain cells to rub together would be shooting 11+ rounds.

 

As a guy who shoots a lot of low cap, it's not wrong at all to have positions that it would be more desirable to shoot 11 plus rounds at one spot. Low-cap shooters just got to figure out a different way of doing things, that's part of the fun of low cap. Since divisions only compete against people in those same divisions, stage layout really doesn't matter too much in the end results. People who think it does are way too hung up on the overalls, and if you want to win the overalls you need to buy an open gun or a PCC. Because shooting production or single stack the odds of winning overall is pretty much out the window. You can however still when your division which is all we're trying to do anyway.