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I wish Production wasn't dying


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40 minutes ago, RJH said:

As a guy who shoots a lot of low cap, it's not wrong at all to have positions that it would be more desirable to shoot 11 plus rounds at one spot.

 

It can be desirable to shoot more than 8, 9, or 11 rounds at one position without being punitive. If the best way to shoot a stage involves a standing reload for locap divisions (for instance), I don't think it's a good stage.

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7 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:


Nobody shooting Production minds reloading 3 to 4 times per stage. In fact, we’re all about that life.

 

We loathe when lazy stage designers make us do two of those reloads flat-footed in a high hit-factor stage because they only think with a 23-round mindset.

 

Typically it would only require someone to move 1 or 2 targets to turn such a stage into something fantastic for *all* divisions to shoot. In fact, that often results in the SS & Production guys having 2 or 3 ways to attack things, which should be any stage designer’s goal.

 

When I’m shooting Carry Optics, I’m just as disappointed in a stage that has 18 rounds visible from one location. It just comes from a different direction.

 


^^Absolutely ALL of this.

 

A stage can be legal but still a bad, boring, or stupid stage.  One of the reasons I have shot Production, SS, PCC, and CO at various times is so that when I design stages, I remember to think about it from different points of view.  When I started (only having shot Production) a couple of the local Open shooters would come by and vet my stages, and tell me about all the things I had missed from a hi-cap point of view.  (Which was initially a lot.)

 

Sure, everyone in [whatever] division has the same stage to shoot, and are "only" shooting against each other.  That doesn't mean that a legal stage can't be dumb or not fun to shoot, especially when compared to someone else in a different division shooting it.

 

People who design stages should (IMO) go past merely thinking "is this legal" and instead think "is this going to be fun to hi-cap pistol, lo-cap pistol, AND PCC to shoot?"  Adding "and there are multiple ways to shoot it" is even better.

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19 hours ago, Thomas H said:


^^Absolutely ALL of this.

 

A stage can be legal but still a bad, boring, or stupid stage.  One of the reasons I have shot Production, SS, PCC, and CO at various times is so that when I design stages, I remember to think about it from different points of view.  When I started (only having shot Production) a couple of the local Open shooters would come by and vet my stages, and tell me about all the things I had missed from a hi-cap point of view.  (Which was initially a lot.)

 

Sure, everyone in [whatever] division has the same stage to shoot, and are "only" shooting against each other.  That doesn't mean that a legal stage can't be dumb or not fun to shoot, especially when compared to someone else in a different division shooting it.

 

People who design stages should (IMO) go past merely thinking "is this legal" and instead think "is this going to be fun to hi-cap pistol, lo-cap pistol, AND PCC to shoot?"  Adding "and there are multiple ways to shoot it" is even better.

:cheers:

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On 6/18/2021 at 1:49 PM, Jeff226 said:

"Pick the division you like and shoot in it".  If a match favors limited and you are shooting single stack...so what?  All of the other single stacks are shooting the same course.  I thought everybody here wanted locap for the challenge/competition anyhow.

 

I like SS because 1911's are the gun the Lord intended us to shoot. Don't really care about the 'challenge'.

 

I think your point is valid at major matches, where there is usually heat in all divisions, but in local matches there might only be 1-2 good shooters in any particular division. In such situations, I'm accustomed to looking at overall scores to get an idea of how I shot and fuel the post-match bench-racing. Most of us longtime shooters have a pretty good idea of how much of an advantage different divisions have on a typical stage, but it upsets this calculation when a stage is *particularly* unfriendly to a certain division, or overly friendly to a certain division.

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On 6/19/2021 at 3:13 PM, Fishbreath said:

 

NROI has said that it's wrong (not against the rules, but undesirable) to handicap PCCs by requiring more difficult starts for rifle shooters. 

that's kind of silly. NROI has already handicapped everyone else by mostly giving PCC's significantly easier starts.

 

You don't have to be crazy about it, but for example, when I have stage start with hands on marks, I have the pcc shooters start with muzzle on one mark, and a foot touching a mark at the base of the wall. basically not letting pcc shooters stand several feet further away.

 

I also never do an uprange start on a field stage unless it is a gun-on-table start.

 

for whatever reasons, it's *extremely* unusual for a pcc shooter to win the overall here. It's probably only happened a handful times since pcc was introduced.

Edited by motosapiens
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4 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

I like SS because 1911's are the gun the Lord intended us to shoot. Don't really care about the 'challenge'.

 

I think your point is valid at major matches, where there is usually heat in all divisions, but in local matches there might only be 1-2 good shooters in any particular division. In such situations, I'm accustomed to looking at overall scores to get an idea of how I shot and fuel the post-match bench-racing. Most of us longtime shooters have a pretty good idea of how much of an advantage different divisions have on a typical stage, but it upsets this calculation when a stage is *particularly* unfriendly to a certain division, or overly friendly to a certain division.

I agree level 1 matches should be as friendly to everyone as possible (within reasonable limits) as this is where we theoretically gain/attract/maintain participation.  I can also see a SS guy comparing results against production.  I just don't think jumping through hoops to give revolver shooters some false notion they are competitive against PROD/SS/L10 is in the top 100 problems USPSA has.  SS is the only division left where DVC sort of works.  Sometimes you get screwed choosing major.  If we could finally toss DVC that problem could be solved also.    

 

 

Edited by Jeff226
remove redundant sentence
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On 6/19/2021 at 5:13 PM, Fishbreath said:

 

NROI has said that it's wrong (not against the rules, but undesirable) to handicap PCCs by requiring more difficult starts for rifle shooters. In the same way, it seems wrong to me to handicap locap divisions by building stages that have positions where anyone with two brain cells to rub together would be shooting 11+ rounds.

I shoot pistols so I don't compete against PCCs and am not concerned about how PCCs have to start as long as it is safe.  

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12 hours ago, Jeff226 said:

SS is the only division left where DVC sort of works.  Sometimes you get screwed choosing major. 

 

 

I used to think that. Now I think that the more skilled you are, the more you should just shoot major and not worry about it. It's not a coincidence that the first minor shooter was 19th place at nationals, in match that was generally regarded to be pretty unfriendly to 8-round guns.

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18 hours ago, motosapiens said:

that's kind of silly. NROI has already handicapped everyone else by mostly giving PCC's significantly easier starts.

 

I agree it's silly, but it is what it is. I do like the idea of a barrel start for PCCs when handguns get to do a holstered uprange start, but I'm not sure if that would pass muster.

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14 hours ago, Jeff226 said:

SS is the only division left where DVC sort of worksSometimes you get screwed choosing major.  If we could finally toss DVC that problem could be solved also.    

 

2 hours ago, motosapiens said:

I used to think that. Now I think that the more skilled you are, the more you should just shoot major and not worry about it. It's not a coincidence that the first minor shooter was 19th place at nationals, in match that was generally regarded to be pretty unfriendly to 8-round guns.

I am willing to agree we are saying about the same thing.

 

2 hours ago, motosapiens said:

at local matches I compete against everyone, in every division.

Then it is good they have a combine all option for you.

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5 minutes ago, Dazhi said:

We don't have to reinvent wheels to revive PROD. 

Just make CO and PROD both 15-round like IPSC.  I for one will be going back to shoot PROD with that change.

production, if gun comes with a 17 round mag thats what you should be able to use. or better yet  just make it the 141 length rule, ie CO with iron sights, done deal and IMHO get rid of the flashlights or just make a true frame weight legal, this gluing a led to a frame weight is really stupid. Like all racing or shooting the "entry level,simple, affordable" class rules always over time evolve into something insane/crazy/sneaky/expensive and the class dies off or changes into something it was never intended to be.  

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31 minutes ago, Sinister4 said:

production, if gun comes with a 17 round mag thats what you should be able to use. or better yet  just make it the 141 length rule, ie CO with iron sights, done deal and IMHO get rid of the flashlights or just make a true frame weight legal, this gluing a led to a frame weight is really stupid. Like all racing or shooting the "entry level,simple, affordable" class rules always over time evolve into something insane/crazy/sneaky/expensive and the class dies off or changes into something it was never intended to be.  

 

Personally I like the idea of 15 rounds better than 140's. Anyone who shows up is going to have mags that hold 15. If the rule is 140's they'll need to go buy $60 is springs and $120 in base pads so they can be on par with everyone else. And I don't really see the gain there. CO mags will run you about $100 ea. 

 

If we were going to allow full mags, I agree just go to 140's. Because full mags is going to mean base pads and springs anyway, so at that point who cares.

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On 9/19/2021 at 2:24 PM, Tunachaser said:

Recent level 2 sectional by LdF  participation.  CO is where it's at...LOL

 

   
Division
Carry Optics 40
Open 36
Pcc 36
Limited 24
Single Stack 10
Production 9
Revolver 6
Limited 10 1

 

1 hour ago, Dazhi said:

We don't have to reinvent wheels to revive PROD. 

Just make CO and PROD both 15-round like IPSC.  I for one will be going back to shoot PROD with that change.

A lot of folks might like limited minor (might as well call it what it is), I'm not sure what advantage to the sport there would be in moving iron sight pistol shooters from limited to production though.

 

If low entry numbers is really a problem combining 10 round production with single stack is an option. 

 

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57 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

. If the rule is 140's they'll need to go buy $60 is springs and $120 in base pads so they can be on par with everyone else. And I don't really see the gain there. CO mags will run you about $100 ea. 

 

My 19 round CZ mags are $35 each.  140 extensions are $30 - $40.  No extra springs needed, just shave the follower legs.

 

Glock 17 rounders are $25 - $30.  Strike Industries extension are $18 including a new longer spring.

 

Anyone who pays a hundo for CO mags does it because they want to.

 

There is no need to buy aftermarket base pads or new springs just to fill OEM magazines all the way.  Where do you come up with this stuff?

Edited by SGT_Schultz
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4 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

My 19 round CZ mags are $35 each.  140 extensions are $30 - $40.  No extra springs needed, just shave the follower legs.

 

Glock 17 rounders are $25 - $30.  Strike Industries extension are $18 including a new longer spring.

 

Anyone who pays a Hindi for CO mags does it because they want to.

 

There is no need to buy aftermarket base pads just to fill OEM magazines all the way.  That's just you wasting money.

 

So you're like me and wasting $40 on base pads, how many mags? I like to have a least 3 so that's $120 just like I said. Plus your $105 in mags. But you are skipping the $60 on Grams springs and followers and opting to cut up your follower instead. That's cool I guess. 

 

And you're right guys can just run they're stock mags with 17 rounds in them instead of wasting their money on 140's. I see lots of guys winning matches with just stock mags filled up. 

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27 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

My 19 round CZ mags are $35 each.  140 extensions are $30 - $40.  No extra springs needed, just shave the follower legs.

 

Glock 17 rounders are $25 - $30.  Strike Industries extension are $18 including a new longer spring.

 

Anyone who pays a hundo for CO mags does it because they want to.

 

There is no need to buy aftermarket base pads or new springs just to fill OEM magazines all the way.  Where do you come up with this stuff?

 

How about I simplify using your numbers. You take a $35 mag then add a $40 base pad to it. That's 115% increase in the cost of each mag and I don't feel like it improves to the game. 

 

You can disagree, maybe you really like having lots of bullets and not reloading as often. That's cool. But the cost is there it's simple math. 

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17 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

So you're like me and wasting $40 on base pads, how many mags? I like to have a least 3 so that's $120 just like I said. Plus your $105 in mags. But you are skipping the $60 on Grams springs and followers and opting to cut up your follower instead. That's cool I guess. 

 

And you're right guys can just run they're stock mags with 17 rounds in them instead of wasting their money on 140's. I see lots of guys winning matches with just stock mags filled up. 

 

You have a great way of twisting others words to suit your agenda and try to score a point.

 

Not gonna waste time on this

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So I guess the real question should be, would changing the rules in the production division just shift shooters back from other divisions or bring in new shooters? It seems like right now the USPSA leadership is just moving around chairs at the table and not really getting new members (not saying that's good or bad to get new members).

 

I really don't see the point in changing production rules just to get some people back from carry optics.

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3 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

You have a great way of twisting others words to suit your agenda and try to score a point.

 

Not gonna waste time on this

 

I didn't twist anything, you said I was wasting my money. My original comment wasn't directed at you, I just said I don't think we need 140's due to the added cost, and I'd prefer 15 rounds. You don't like me so you made a jab at me. Even though you do basically the same thing minus the grams follower set.  Someone is trying to score points that's for sure

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Intheshaw1 said:

So I guess the real question should be, would changing the rules in the production division just shift shooters back from other divisions or bring in new shooters? It seems like right now the USPSA leadership is just moving around chairs at the table and not really getting new members (not saying that's good or bad to get new members).

 

I really don't see the point in changing production rules just to get some people back from carry optics.

 

I assume that's the goal. We're always talking about "saving" a division. And that's the only way to do it.

 

Really, Prod 140 might put a hurt on CO. It basically would take the most unreliable part of your CO rig out of the equation. This is probably the best part of this proposal. 

 

 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Intheshaw1 said:

So I guess the real question should be, would changing the rules in the production division just shift shooters back from other divisions or bring in new shooters? It seems like right now the USPSA leadership is just moving around chairs at the table and not really getting new members (not saying that's good or bad to get new members).

 

I really don't see the point in changing production rules just to get some people back from carry optics.

 

Been seeing an influx of new shooters this summer at my local club match.  They are showing up with some sort of hi-cap 9mm pistol and 3-4 mags.  Guess which division we recommend they start in….yep, Limited minor.  If Prod was 15 rnds that would be an option.  But at 10 rnds, they all seem to blow right by the “starter” division and go to Limited.

 

I don’t really care one way or the other what they do to Prod.  I only shoot it now and then (i.e. Lo-Cap Nats).  It’s a fun division but to say its the “starter” division, my anecdotal experience at club matches with noobs is they ain’t starting in Prod.  

 

 

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