Jeff226 Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 7 minutes ago, motosapiens said: a) nobody wants limited minor except little girls. b) it doesn’t solve any problem. there is no problem with limited. c) more divisions are bad. there are already way too many. A. You are in denial or just dishonest. More people want limited minor than single stack or production B. I can quote you at least 100 times saying minor is not competitive in limited C. If we add one division, you will still have a spare toe or two left for counting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff226 Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 14 minutes ago, ltdmstr said: I wasn't advocating changing the rules. Just suggesting that having everyone shoot major would be better than changing the scoring. And if you can't tell the difference between 9 and 40 in a 2011, maybe you need to chrono your loads. As for a division most people want, sure. Most of the complaints are about too many divisions already and stupid rule changes. Kinda like what you're suggesting now. You are just changing the preferred round from 40 lite to 9 major by allowing 9 major. It does nothing better and nothing to address the complaint that minor isn't competitive or the growing requests/demand for a standalone limited minor division. I can tell a difference between minor and major in any gun...but the difference is not "significant" or worth an extra point for Cs and Ds. If major was factory .40 or .45 then it might be more noticeable...but not "significant"...165 pf in a 2011 is a powder puff. Going from 9mm to 10mm or 357/44 magnum is when it becomes significant in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 7 hours ago, Superkaratemonkeyfighter said: I think the broad majority of shooters would agree Limited doesn’t need to be changed , looked at , or improved. there nothing wrong with it. I felt that way about Production 4 years ago and look at it now..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishbreath Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 8 hours ago, Jeff226 said: More people want limited minor than single stack or production You're relying on match participation numbers to say this, but we've already been over why you can't do that. Limited Minor participation is almost exclusively beginners who didn't bring enough magazines to shoot Production, full stop. It's important to cater to beginners, but not to the extent of changing the rules. Not every golf hole is a 60-yard par three. Go is played on a 17x17 board, even if a 9x9 board is way easier for a beginner to play on. There are race cars faster than amusement park go-karts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuz Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 On 6/14/2020 at 5:37 AM, Brooke said: Anyway I can tell you there is nothing like shooting a 2011 custom gun. They are usually expensive but who the hell cares. They are fun fun fun. Go there and never come back to a mundane platform again. I totally disagree with you. I shot an STI Eagle, and then had a custom SVI Sight tracker built for me by SVI and I’d rather shoot my Glock any day of the week. It feels better in my hand, and I actually shoot better with the Glock. And I never have to care about dropping my $150 custom tuned mags in the mud because it’s raining on match day. Don’t get me wrong, I’m NOT saying my Glock is better than my SVI, not even close. The SVI is a beauty and a work of art. I hope one day my kids enjoy it when they inherit it. But I’m more comfortable shooting a Glock, and for me it’s all about FUN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stafford Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 I squadded with a a guy a few weeks ago in a local match that was shooting Limited Minor. He blazed through everything and won Limited. From what I heard, he's a Production M who was working on speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrUnderwood08 Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 I'm going to be shooting production but it really seems to be hurting right now. I shot limited major some years ago with an STI Edge. I don't see an issue with limited as it currently sits but I do wish production would up the capacity to 15 like IPSC. The lower capacity divisions (revo, SS, production) seem to be struggling the most. It seems these three divisions come with the greatest handicap and require a lot more diligence, skill, consistency and stage planning. Equipment/gun is still important but less so than other divisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 11 hours ago, Jeff226 said: A. You are in denial or just dishonest. More people want limited minor than single stack or production nope. sure, lots of noobs sign up for limited minor when just learning the sport because that's what they have. that's not the same as 'wanting' limited minor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ssanders224 Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 (edited) This thread is a dumpster fire. Adding divisions and diluting the rule set and equipment is NOT healthy for an amateur competitive sport. Period. "All inclusive" is not what makes an organized sport attractive. A lot of sports have somewhat arbitrary rules that you have to abide by. This is no different. If you want to shoot an iron sighted 2011 in USPSA and be competitive, you shoot .40. "Well I want to shoot a new fancy 2011, but .40 is stupid!?!" Sorry, this isn't BK. You can't "have it your way". Handicap yourself in Limited or find another division. I'm really over this whole "we need to have a spot for everyone and what they want to shoot" idea. Stop it. That's not now competitive sports work, and that's not what makes them attractive to COMPETITORS. Edited July 13, 2021 by Ssanders224 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balakay Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 4 minutes ago, Ssanders224 said: This thread is a dumpster fire. Adding divisions and diluting the rule set and equipment is NOT healthy for an amateur competitive sport. Period. "All inclusive" is not what makes a sport attractive. A lot of sports have somewhat arbitrary rules that you have to abide by. This is no different. If you want to shoot an iron sighted 2011 in USPSA and be competitive, you shoot .40. "Well I want to shoot a new fancy 2011, but .40 is stupid!?!" Sorry, this isn't BK. You can't "have it your way". Handicap yourself in Limited or find another division. I'm kind of over this whole "we need to have a spot for everyone and what they want to shoot" stuff. Stop it. That's not now competitive sports work, and that's not what makes them attractive to COMPETITORS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadShot Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 Ssanders224, thank you..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 Nailed it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuz Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 1 hour ago, Ssanders224 said: This thread is a dumpster fire. I'm really over this whole "we need to have a spot for everyone and what they want to shoot" idea. Stop it. That's not now competitive sports work, and that's not what makes them attractive to COMPETITORS. I totally agree about the dumpster fire. But, we do have a place for everyone to shoot what they want. There are VERY few guns that wouldn’t fit into one of the existing divisions. So everyone can come and play. You just might not win, so you need to learn to deal with that. I remember my first ever IDPA match many, many years ago. It was the only match going on that weekend and I wanted to shoot. I brought my Production rig and showed them what I brung and told them to put me in whatever division it fit into. They were trying to explain all the rule differences between USPSA and IDPA, when they were done I said look, I promise I’ll be safe. As for all the other rules, I’m going to shoot each stage however I want. Feel free to asses penalties as I acquire them. And they did. By the end of the match, I was RO’ing other shooters because they needed the help. I had fun, and I didn’t win, or get any trophies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ssanders224 Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 5 minutes ago, Cuz said: I totally agree about the dumpster fire. But, we do have a place for everyone to shoot what they want. There are VERY few guns that wouldn’t fit into one of the existing divisions. So everyone can come and play. You just might not win, so you need to learn to deal with that. That is exactly the point.... Kind of. It really doesn't matter how many guns exist that don't fit perfectly into a USPSA division. That should have little bearing on the division requirements themselves. Sure... Slowly, over time, divisions may need to be modified slightlyk to include or preclude certain types of equipment, modifications, accessories, etc, but it should not be frequent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 Cooper's major founding principle to create what became IPSC was "All pistols compete together equally so we can find out what works best (btw: it's the 1911 in .45 ACP)". Times have changed. Pretty soon we'll have a dozen fishponds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff226 Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 3 hours ago, Fishbreath said: You're relying on match participation numbers to say this, but we've already been over why you can't do that. Limited Minor participation is almost exclusively beginners who didn't bring enough magazines to shoot Production, full stop. 3 hours ago, motosapiens said: nope. sure, lots of noobs sign up for limited minor when just learning the sport because that's what they have. that's not the same as 'wanting' limited minor. Then who is buying all of these 9mm 2011s and CZ TSOs in 9mm? Who are these people constantly trying to change production into limited minor? It certainly isn't noobs who never shot production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 8 minutes ago, Jeff226 said: Then who is buying all of these 9mm 2011s and CZ TSOs in 9mm? Who are these people constantly trying to change production into limited minor? It certainly isn't noobs who never shot production. It certainly isn't top-level GM's. It appears it's people who bought the wrong gun and now want to change the game to fit them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 12 minutes ago, Jeff226 said: Then who is buying all of these 9mm 2011s and CZ TSOs in 9mm? 3 gunners and other people who just want to plink rather than compete seriously. It certainly isn't good, competitive pistol shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 Probably shooters that have little interest in competing. IIRC CZ sells more Shadow 2s in a year than there are USPSA members total, but there are no floods of new shooters toting shiny new Shadow 2s with the price tags still on them. A visit to SHOT will show just how tiny a backwater USPSA is in the vast ocean of shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff226 Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 1 hour ago, shred said: Probably shooters that have little interest in competing. IIRC CZ sells more Shadow 2s in a year than there are USPSA members total, but there are no floods of new shooters toting shiny new Shadow 2s with the price tags still on them. A visit to SHOT will show just how tiny a backwater USPSA is in the vast ocean of shooting. You are right, there isn't a flood of "new" shooters showing up with new CZs...which was my point. There are however many people shooting new CZs and 2011s in limited minor. Many of them are A and above so it would be hard to prove they all have little interest in competing if the investment alone wasn't sufficient evidence. This runs counter to the assertion by some that limited minor is predominantly noobs without enough magazines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff226 Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 1 hour ago, RJH said: It certainly isn't top-level GM's. It appears it's people who bought the wrong gun and now want to change the game to fit them If they bought a gun that fits the existing rules for a limited gun...how did they buy the wrong gun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 2 minutes ago, Jeff226 said: If they bought a gun that fits the existing rules for a limited gun...how did they buy the wrong gun? This is a silly question. Other than PCC all guns fit in open division, but if you bought a single stack to shoot in open division, you bought the wrong gun. If you buy 9 mm to shoot in limited division, you probably bought the wrong gun. If people can't figure that out they deserve what they get LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff226 Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 Just now, RJH said: This is a silly question. Other than PCC all guns fit in open division, but if you bought a single stack to shoot in open division, you bought the wrong gun. If you buy 9 mm to shoot in limited division, you probably bought the wrong gun. If people can't figure that out they deserve what they get LOL Nobody was talking about buying a single stack to compete in limited...what a stupid point. Thread is called "limited minor" not "which single stack for limited" If the rules have choices for power factor, and one power factor is always the "wrong" choice, then why pretend there are choices? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 3 minutes ago, Jeff226 said: Nobody was talking about buying a single stack to compete in limited...what a stupid point. Thread is called "limited minor" not "which single stack for limited" If the rules have choices for power factor, and one power factor is always the "wrong" choice, then why pretend there are choices? You mean those rules that favor power factor in divisions like open, limited 10, revolver.... Nobody pretends there's a choice, everyone knows there's a right answer and a wrong answer. There's just a few that want to change the rules to suit them to do what they want instead of buying the gun that fits within and takes advantage of the rules, or shooting a division that their gun is better suited to. So yes you can buy the wrong gun even if it still fits in the division PS don't get your panties in a wad because you asked a silly question LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 12 minutes ago, Jeff226 said: Nobody was talking about buying a single stack to compete in limited...what a stupid point. Thread is called "limited minor" not "which single stack for limited" limited minor and single stack for limited are equally stupid ideas. There are many different ways to be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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