2011 and Carry optics

[SGT_Schultz]

3 hours ago, cheby said:

I will tell you what competitors want....

I was a production shooter for a long time. I still love the division; however, I no longer shoot it.

It used to be the most competitive and popular division. Now there are 3 people show up (used to be 30+) at the local match. There are 2 people shooting SS as well. There was a section match in Florida in December with ZERO production shooters. Does not that show what competitors want?

 

We have too many divisions with the equipment rules that no longer make sense. It is diluting competition and ultimately kills it. So at this point I see no problem allowing 2011 in CO as well as combining Production and SS. 

 

Nothing is diluting competition.  Your post actually proves it's the opposite: competition is being concentrated in a few popular divisions.

 

The people who want to shoot the popular divisions will do it regardless.  The few that want to shoot the unpopular divisions bother no one and, now that match administration is digital, create no "burden" on anyone.

 

I'd like to hear what Production, Single Stack, and Revolver shooters want.  Not what people who no longer have skin in those divisions want.

[SGT_Schultz]

6 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

Does it really matter?

 

If it doesn't really matter, let those who actually shoot P, SS, and R decide what they want to happen to their divisions.

[MHicks]

1 hour ago, Southpaw said:

 

As a Production shooter, I don't like the idea of adding major scoring to Production. 

 

Clearly they can't make everyone happy with division rules...

If they added major but limited it to 8 rounds it's a good balance. Allowing major or minor in but allowing both to load 10 would not work. I wouldn't  change production if it stands alone. This would just be a consideration in combining the lo cap divisions. 

[Southpaw]

I understood that, just respectfully disagree

[BadShot]

17 hours ago, RJH said:

As a single stack shooter, I love the idea of single stack, production, and L10 being thrown together. Make them all eight major 10 minor and be done

I like this one, too.  Would the SA/DA guns be able to start with the hammer back and safety on?

[RJH]

5 minutes ago, BadShot said:

I like this one, too.  Would the SA/DA guns be able to start with the hammer back and safety on?

 

I honestly wouldn't care, but I am sure some would be offended LOL.

 

[obsessiveshooter]

One thing that does matter to the organization is the need to run a National competition for a dead division they are keeping around because of "Who is it hurting?" type reasoning.  Also, I'm guessing Level 2 and up matches probably buy their trophies before the match, and if half the SS division dies of old age between registration and the match date, those '3rd C' plaques are going to be a waste.  

[BadShot]

So, how would you handle magwells, race holsters, magnets, and equipment positioning with these combined divisions?

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, BadShot said:

So, how would you handle magwells, race holsters, magnets, and equipment positioning with these combined divisions?

My suggestion would be keep the production box. Fit gun in box done. race holsters, eh just allow them. They don't matter. Plenty of people choose to run kydex in Limited so clearly not everyone is sold on the holster making a big difference. 

[Racinready300ex]

On 1/15/2021 at 4:40 PM, SGT_Schultz said:

 

If it doesn't really matter, let those who actually shoot P, SS, and R decide what they want to happen to their divisions.

 

You missed my point, those divisions don't matter yet we cater to them by keeping them around. I've shot SS, l10 and Rev, I'm still on board with nuking them. What I'm not on board with is making big changes to working divisions or adding any more new divisions.

 

I heard a good analogy once comparing divisions to inflation. Print more dollars and each dollar become worth less. The more tiny divisions we support at lvl 2 and up matches the less shooting well at those levels means. Look at IDPA, if someone is a IDPA national champion does that hold the same merit as a uspsa national champion? I don't think it does, and I enjoy shooting IDPA.

 

If at the end of the day uspsa is still supposed to be a competition then we should want less divisions to support a deeper pool of talent. If the goal is just poke holes in cardboard and have fun then we should stop calling things "championships"

[Fishbreath]

31 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

If at the end of the day uspsa is still supposed to be a competition then we should want less divisions to support a deeper pool of talent.

 

You're going to have to provide some support for the assertion that removing divisions will lead to a deeper pool of talent in the remaining ones, rather than driving people out of the sport altogether.

[pskys2]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

You missed my point, those divisions don't matter yet we cater to them by keeping them around. I've shot SS, l10 and Rev, I'm still on board with nuking them. What I'm not on board with is making big changes to working divisions or adding any more new divisions.

 

I heard a good analogy once comparing divisions to inflation. Print more dollars and each dollar become worth less. The more tiny divisions we support at lvl 2 and up matches the less shooting well at those levels means. Look at IDPA, if someone is a IDPA national champion does that hold the same merit as a uspsa national champion? I don't think it does, and I enjoy shooting IDPA.

 

If at the end of the day uspsa is still supposed to be a competition then we should want less divisions to support a deeper pool of talent. If the goal is just poke holes in cardboard and have fun then we should stop calling things "championships"

As for adding Division, it does seem every variation of note is covered but who can tell what the future will bring.  As it stands I agree with not adding any new Divisions, changes need to be well thought out and relevant.

IPSC was developed to be a test bed for handguns.  Secondary, and more importantly for the masses (me included) is fun and last is actual awards/championships or making a living from it.  Those who are able to make a living great, the rest of us it's about personal achievement and enjoyment.

With all of that said if I was to follow your argument to its logical conclusion I'd say we go back to 1990 and we all run what we brung, heads up.  No Divisions of any kind!

I would be ok with that vs nuking any current Divisions.  L10 may well become necessary again and at some point there may become a new fad and SS or Rev or pick your Division will shine again.  Or maybe not.

If there is little participation in a Division how is it diluting the pool of talent in others?

Edited January 18, 2021 by pskys2

[Sarge]

One of our local clubs is now allowing .22 LR in a USPSA practice league. Ugh..

You wait and see. Rimfire will become a division in USPSA. Thus completing the pussification of the sport.

[outerlimits]

4 minutes ago, Sarge said:

One of our local clubs is now allowing .22 LR in a USPSA practice league. Ugh..

You wait and see. Rimfire will become a division in USPSA. Thus completing the pussification of the sport.

Yer right.  And as long as the beard is el jeffe, there will be more.

[SGT_Schultz]

2 hours ago, Fishbreath said:

 

You're going to have to provide some support for the assertion that removing divisions will lead to a deeper pool of talent in the remaining ones, rather than driving people out of the sport altogether.

He won't.  It's wishful thinking. 

[SGT_Schultz]

58 minutes ago, pskys2 said:

 

If there is little participation in a Division how is it diluting the pool of talent in others?

LOL you're right.  It's the absolute opposite of dilution.

[DirkD]

On 1/15/2021 at 5:21 PM, MHicks said:

If they added major but limited it to 8 rounds it's a good balance. Allowing major or minor in but allowing both to load 10 would not work. I wouldn't  change production if it stands alone. This would just be a consideration in combining the lo cap divisions. 

if you want major scoring with 8 rounds, there is single stack

[Racinready300ex]

2 hours ago, Fishbreath said:

 

You're going to have to provide some support for the assertion that removing divisions will lead to a deeper pool of talent in the remaining ones, rather than driving people out of the sport altogether.

 

Okay, go to practiscore and find a match with only a couple of divisions supported. Then find a on with 8+ divisions and a similar number of competitors.  Look at how many people are competing with in each class and division. Doesn't matter if you're gunning for C class or HOA more competition will make it more challenging to pull off. 

 

Look at any Area match and there is a good chance L10-Rev maybe even SS may not have any heat even though it's the biggest match in that area. Area 6 registration is currently showing 1-L10 shooter and no Revolver shooters. SS has great turn out at 10 shooters. Is that really a championship for those divisions?

[Racinready300ex]

 

 

1 hour ago, pskys2 said:

As it stands I agree with not adding any new Divisions

 

So why would you not add any new divisions? It's not crazy for a Area match to have 500 shooters and one L10 shooter. If that's okay why not add more divisions? I hear a lot of guys want Limted minor, and SAO-CO. I know one guy that wants to shoot his wheel gun in CO, so Revo-CO. There is three off the top of my head. Limited minor will likely split limited in half at least, which wouldn't be a bad thing. 

 

[Fishbreath]

8 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

Okay, go to practiscore and find a match with only a couple of divisions supported. Then find a on with 8+ divisions and a similar number of competitors.

 

"Given the same number of competitors, a match with fewer divisions has more people in each division" is tautologically true, but you still haven't made an argument that says fewer divisions actually does anything to stop diluting talent. How many matches of reasonable size (say, 50 shooters) limit the number of divisions they recognize? Basically zero. Divisions differ in popularity depending not just on where you are in the country but even on which matches you frequent.

 

8 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

Is that really a championship for those divisions?

 

Up until last year, New England had plastered everyone else in the AFC East for pretty much a decade and a half straight. Is it really a championship if the competition is weak? (As much as I don't like New England, the answer is yes.)

 

Like @pskys2 said, if almost nobody shoots unpopular divisions, then they're not exactly diluting the talent pool for the popular ones, are they? Can you really argue with a straight face that there are a bunch of Racazas and Sailers hiding out in Revolver and Limited 10?

[Racinready300ex]

1 minute ago, Fishbreath said:

 

"Given the same number of competitors, a match with fewer divisions has more people in each division" is tautologically true, but you still haven't made an argument that says fewer divisions actually does anything to stop diluting talent. How many matches of reasonable size (say, 50 shooters) limit the number of divisions they recognize? Basically zero. Divisions differ in popularity depending not just on where you are in the country but even on which matches you frequent.

 

 

Up until last year, New England had plastered everyone else in the AFC East for pretty much a decade and a half straight. Is it really a championship if the competition is weak? (As much as I don't like New England, the answer is yes.)

 

Like @pskys2 said, if almost nobody shoots unpopular divisions, then they're not exactly diluting the talent pool for the popular ones, are they? Can you really argue with a straight face that there are a bunch of Racazas and Sailers hiding out in Revolver and Limited 10?

 

There may not be a bunch of JJ's out there, but then I didn't make the case for killing the classification system. A better example would be if New England just won with out ever playing a single game. Do you think no one shoots some of those less popular divisions just for easy wins? Is winning L10 really the same as winning Open? I would say it isn't, but clearly you'd disagree. 

[Racinready300ex]

2 hours ago, pskys2 said:

  Secondary, and more importantly for the masses (me included) is fun and last is actual awards/championships or making a living from it. 

 

This is another part I don't get. You have little care about the awards, yet you want your firearm choice to have a award even if there are only a handful of shooters. If you really didn't care you'd be fine with the division going away. You can still shoot the gun in Open (I think you can still shoot revo in prod) you're just less likely to win the award you don't care about anyway.

[MHicks]

1 hour ago, DirkD said:

if you want major scoring with 8 rounds, there is single stack

I know. I'm considering alternatives if it gets to the point where they are just going to eliminate SS, production and limited 10. I guess some lo cap shooters would rather see their favorite division go away rather then be combined with the others. I'd much prefer production and SS remain separate too but if the participation drops to next to nothing what's going to happen?

[DirkD]

2 minutes ago, MHicks said:

I know. I'm considering alternatives if it gets to the point where they are just going to eliminate SS, production and limited 10. I guess some lo cap shooters would rather see their favorite division go away rather then be combined with the others. I'd much prefer production and SS remain separate too but if the participation drops to next to nothing what's going to happen?

they aren't going to eliminate ss, production or L10

eliminating divisions will not help participation, production and single stack are never going away l10 is stupid, but its there so it will stay

I don't see why they wouldn't add single stack with a dot, a lot of old guys want to shoot their guns but can't see well, so why not add it?

[Bosshoss]

44 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

This is another part I don't get. You have little care about the awards, yet you want your firearm choice to have a award even if there are only a handful of shooters. If you really didn't care you'd be fine with the division going away. You can still shoot the gun in Open (I think you can still shoot revo in prod) you're just less likely to win the award you don't care about anyway.

I have shot lots of major matches where the division I like to shoot(Revo) was not even recognized and yet I still shot Revolver and paid same entry fee and travel expenses and motel and food as everyone else. I had no chance of winning anything but still shot and had fun doing what I enjoy knowing my entry fee helped some other division have a better prize table.

While I'm sure some are shooting the smaller divisions because their is less competition I can assure you that some of us are shooting the division we are because of the challenge and fun factor.

I don't care what division you shoot and and care even less that you care what division I shoot.

Killing a division so someone can  brag that they beat 43 shooters instead of 42 is ridiculous.