Jump to content
Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

2011 and Carry optics


Recommended Posts

  • Replies 975
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

25 minutes ago, Bdh821 said:

Mason Lane wins 2020 and 2021 USPSA Limited Nationals with a Sig P320 variant.  Nils took 2nd at 2021 Lim Nats with a Canik.  How many 2011 shooters did they beat?

don't forget shane in 3rd with a glock. they beat *ALL* the 2011 shooters.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Shooting minor.

 

Must of had a flashlight and weights on their guns to do that.

nah, they just run faster than everyone else. The shooting is so easy now that matches are just about who can run through the course fastest. 🤣

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, motosapiens said:

nah, they just run faster than everyone else. The shooting is so easy now that matches are just about who can run through the course fastest. 🤣

 

😆🤣😂

Edited by Boomstick303
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

What does this have to do with anything?  I bet the hit factors of the 90s were greater than the 80s, the 80s greater than the 70s, etc. etc. etc.  Because of rules changes then versus before.  Better access to training, better instructors today than yesterday.  Everyone is using the same equipment so what does comparing old rule hit factors have anything to do with new rule hit factors?  We are not comparing hit factors of yesterday to today.  Again easier to participate does not equal easier to be competitive.  

 

   

What were the pistols options in the OG day?  How many manufacturers actually built USPSA / IPSC dedicated guns in large production numbers in regards to the action shooting sport market let alone how many guns were good enough to compete with?  Growth/demand for sport specific equipment drives up cost.  To cover R&D costs and keep up with demand play a part in driving competition guns up in price as well.  Look at the cost of 2011 pistols and how much they have gone up over the last 2-3 years.  Part of the reason they cost so much is they builders cannot make them fast enough which creates a low supply for a high demand.  I will grant you Infinity was an exception because the cost of their guns has always been high, but so the demand for the guns has been high too.  The rule changes have nothing to do with this rise in the cost of pistols.  Not to mention you can compete at a very high level with a Canik, Glock, Sig, S&W and numerous other pistol a few hundred less than 1K.  This is just a personal observation, but it would seem the pain threshold the majority of shooters seems to be around 1K + $150 for a competition gun.  This has zero to do with how the rules were written or have been changed to.  

 

I sit hear and read all of these people keep cracking on and on about the gun doesn't matter.  Then you read how you are required to buy expensive equipment to be competitive.  That putting dots on you gun, expanded mag capacity, and when the rules allow competitors to put flashlights/weights on our guns makes the sport easier to be competitive (not just  participate).  If these rule changes make everything so easy then where are all of these newly minted Masters and GMs.  

 

 

 

 

Sigh....My comment was related to the "easier and more expensive" comment above. And when we're talking OG of CO that was like 5 years ago if that. And @BritinUSA was one of the main voices promoting the idea. We're not talking way back in the time machine here. I think the division was production rules, you know the gun was like it came from the factory and a 35 oz weight limit and 10 round mags. some s#!t like that. Are you going to tell me like Moto that a CZ shadow 2 with all the cajun goodies, brass this and tungsten that, 1.5 lbs SA trigger, 140 mm mags etc isn't a easier gun to shoot well than a basically stock glock? 

 

Does that matter, no. That wasn't the point at all. It's just a simple statement the guns are easier to shoot now but they cost more to set up like that. 

 

So as we talk about adding 2011's and magwells for CO, those things will also make the gun in the division easier to shoot and cost more. Does cost matter? No, not to most people in this sport. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

3 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

ok, if you want to define 'easier' as 'you get a higher hit factor even if you finish further down in the standings'. 

I personally think the only thing that counts in 'easier' is the competition.

 

I have a different view. IMHO, Everything we do is pretty easy. the shots are easy, the gun manipulations and reloads are easy, the physical activities (running a few steps, leaning slightly, occasionally squatting a little) are easy. Pre-teens and the elderly can easily do everything the sport requires. The hard thing is to do them faster and more accurately than someone else, the more competition in your division, the harder it is.

 

So I can assume since everything we do is easy you have a few national championships in this game? I mean based on your definition of easy being the standings as the only thing that counts. 

 

All the gadgets you want to add to the divisions are intended to make the things you think are easy, easier. It must be more challenging for you then want to admit. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

 

So I can assume since everything we do is easy you have a few national championships in this game? I mean based on your definition of easy being the standings as the only thing that counts. 

 

i don't see what national championships have to do with it. the guys that win nationals (real nationals, not first in their 'class' or category) are better at doing easy things fast than I am. fwiw, I have had some success for an old guy, but if you ask people who have won nationals (like stoeger) and people who have trained champions (steve anderson), they will also tell you that none of the things you have to do in USPSA are hard. Take away the time pressure and pretty much anyone who practices even a little can hit a 25-30 yard mini-popper almost every time. Everyone can reload. Everyone can draw while moving to a new position. All the individual skills are easy. The hard part is doing it quickly, and consistently.

 

This is in contrast to gymnastics or supercross, where the actual skills the athletes are demonstrating are so difficult that only a few handfuls of people in the world can execute them. Even in isolation, with no one around, even those of us with a dirtbike background aren't really capable of blitzing SX stadium whoops. Even those of us in good physical condition can't do a backflip on a 4" balance beam.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

 

Does that matter, no. That wasn't the point at all. It's just a simple statement the guns are easier to shoot now but they cost more to set up like that. 

 

there still seem to be some cheap plastic guns near the top at nationals. As far as I can tell, the $150 trigger kits aren't significantly better today than they were when CO started out.

 

Maybe JJ only won because of the heavy DA gun tho. lol.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You guys are always arguing and entertaining the rest of us.  Thank you for keeping it civil, so we don't have to lock it down.  I have to agree about the fast feet folks, at least in USPSA.  Most A+ shooters can shoot at about the same pace, its the getting to, in and out of positions while shooting that makes a huge difference.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, RangerTrace said:

I have to agree about the fast feet folks, at least in USPSA.  Most A+ shooters can shoot at about the same pace, its the getting to, in and out of positions while shooting that makes a huge difference.  

you think it's foot speed? because it isn't. It's largely shooting earlier coming in and leaving sooner when the shooting is done, and wasting less time. However, it's also provable from classifier scores that M and GM shooters simply score more points per second when standing still. They're either doing it faster, or they're doing it more accurately at the same speed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

49 minutes ago, RangerTrace said:

I think you and I have argued about this before.  Two shooters with equal shooting skills, the faster runner is going to win.  Thats what I'm saying.  If you argue with that, you are just a _ _ _ _.  

 

I'm not so sure about that, but it depends on what you mean by 'faster runner'. If you're talking a better 40 yard sprint time, you're almost certainly wrong, because that's really not relevant in USPSA stages, at least among normal healthy non-disabled people. If you mean over a 5 yard start and stop, then there's still such a tiny difference in movement time that the shooting/moving skills would really have to be exactly equal for that small margin of movement to make a difference. It's pretty rare to even make it to top speed. You basically try to leave aggressively, and then almost immediately you're setting up for the next position.

 

Anyway, the fact is that shooting skills are NOT equal, and they vastly overshadow running speed, and the people who win matches are almost never the fastest runner in the field. They are always the ones who shoot the best, and who blend shooting and moving the best. They score the most points per second, regardless of foot speed.

Edited by motosapiens
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/18/2021 at 10:28 AM, Sarge said:

One of our local clubs is now allowing .22 LR in a USPSA practice league. Ugh..

You wait and see. Rimfire will become a division in USPSA. Thus completing the pussification of the sport.

I'd be interested in what targets they set up and how they score with .22 LR in play.

 

Leave the steel poppers in stages and they won't usually be knocked down by the rimfire guys.  Plus there would be a need for a sub-minor scoring scheme.  The whole package of targets and PF-related scoring would have to change.

 

Nah I don't see it happening.

 

Steel Challenge is one place the rimfire shooters can play, and it seems they do so quite happily.

Edited by GunBugBit
Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, motosapiens said:

there still seem to be some cheap plastic guns near the top at nationals. As far as I can tell, the $150 trigger kits aren't significantly better today than they were when CO started out.

 

Maybe JJ only won because of the heavy DA gun tho. lol.

 

Should our divisions be base on what the pro's shoot well? Is Nils almost winning Nationals in Limited with a production gun really a case to allow Limited guns in production? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Should our divisions be base on what the pro's shoot well? Is Nils almost winning Nationals in Limited with a production gun really a case to allow Limited guns in production? 

no, of course not, but the fact that the first 3 guys in limited were shooting crappy plastic striker-fired guns does help puncture some of the myth of 2011 superiority. I believe I stated somewhere early on in this thread that I'm perfectly happy keeping 2011's out of CO because 'haha, f*** those guys!'. I'm not sure I'm worried about being at a competitive disadvantage to them, tho I suspect the typical B/C would probably use it as an excuse.

Edited by motosapiens
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

Is Nils almost winning Nationals in Limited with a production gun really a case to allow Limited guns in production? 

 

No one here but you has made that argument.

 

Just admit you're wrong

Edited by Johnny_Chimpo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, GunBugBit said:

I'd be interested in what targets they set up and how they score with .22 LR in play.

 

Leave the steel poppers in stages and they won't usually be knocked down by the rimfire guys.  Plus there would be a need for a sub-minor scoring scheme.  The whole package of targets and PF-related scoring would have to change.

 

Nah I don't see it happening.

 

Steel Challenge is one place the rimfire shooters can play, and it seems they do so quite happily.

 

It's a fun league with USPSA targets (mostly, they have used IDPA targets too) and HF scoring.  No steel.  No relationship to the real USPSA matches in that club.

 

Something like 2 - 3 people shot rimfire regularly and mostly to get trigger time with the 10-22s they normally use for steel challenge.

 

I didn't once hear anyone say "gee I wish we could use these in USPSA".

 

I think @Sarge is worrying about nothing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

no, of course not, but the fact that the first 3 guys in limited were shooting crappy plastic striker-fired guns does help puncture some of the myth of 2011 superiority.

Dave Sevigny let the air out of that bag a long time ago. There's almost no limit to what someone putting in the work to develop freakish skills can do, even with gear that some might call sub-optimal equipment. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

It's a fun league with USPSA targets (mostly, they have used IDPA targets too) and HF scoring.  No steel.  No relationship to the real USPSA matches in that club.

 

Something like 2 - 3 people shot rimfire regularly and mostly to get trigger time with the 10-22s they normally use for steel challenge.

 

I didn't once hear anyone say "gee I wish we could use these in USPSA".

 

I think @Sarge is worrying about nothing.

MRPC we had a guy shot a .22 PCC that I didn’t hear about until the end of the match. Last time for that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, ima45dv8 said:

Dave Sevigny let the air out of that bag a long time ago. There's almost no limit to what someone putting in the work to develop freakish skills can do, even with gear that some might call sub-optimal equipment. 

 

 

people here always used to say that sevigny and vogel were just weirdos. seems like there are alot of weirdos anymore. I'm not sure how it can be called suboptimal tho unless you carefully test it. Local GM was all excited about slightly faster more accurate splits with a flashlight on his legion, but I don't think he ever even ran it in a match, because it was a drawback in enough other ways.

 

Personally, I *like* shooting heavy metal guns better than crappy plastic guns, but I seem to shoot 1911's, cz75's, shadow 2, 2011, sig legion, and a crappy plastic xdm all at about the same speed.  I do think the crappy plastic guns benefit from a little added weight, to get them closer to a 75b or (better yet) 1911 weight, but I don't find any weight beyond that to be helpful overall. There's no doubt in my mind that a heavier gun is slightly better for splits, but slightly slower in transitions, draws, reloads, etc...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 hours ago, RangerTrace said:

You guys are always arguing and entertaining the rest of us.  Thank you for keeping it civil, so we don't have to lock it down.  I have to agree about the fast feet folks, at least in USPSA.  Most A+ shooters can shoot at about the same pace, its the getting to, in and out of positions while shooting that makes a huge difference.  

Idk the Lia Thomas comment was triggering to me ego.  Idk if I’ll recover 🤣

 

people suggested that top shooters of Nats should make up rules and I offered my suggestion of PCC major.  Anyone who actually believes that is funny to me 

Edited by Bdh821
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, RangerTrace said:

Moto, lets shoot for 2023 Area 4 Championships.  I don't care for USPSA any more, but you call the division and I will buy the gear and practice to see if I can keep up with you.    

 

thats silly. this debate won’t be settled by personal dick-swinging. would certainly love to share a beer with you sometime tho. i’m shooting (and working) all 3 handgun nationals this year. i retire at the end of 2023, and i’d love to get down to an A4 match soon. 2024 might give me enough time to suck less, lol.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

thats silly. this debate won’t be settled by personal dick-swinging. would certainly love to share a beer with you sometime tho. i’m shooting (and working) all 3 handgun nationals this year. i retire at the end of 2023, and i’d love to get down to an A4 match soon. 2024 might give me enough time to suck less, lol.

You sound like me, more and more.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.



×
×
  • Create New...