2011 and Carry optics

[Fishbreath]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

There may not be a bunch of JJ's out there, but then I didn't make the case for killing the classification system. A better example would be if New England just won with out ever playing a single game. Do you think no one shoots some of those less popular divisions just for easy wins? Is winning L10 really the same as winning Open? I would say it isn't, but clearly you'd disagree. 

 

Sure, maybe they do, but let me turn the question back on you: why do you care if it's easier to be Revolver champion of Area Whatever with three guys shooting than it is to be Open champion? There aren't a lot of Revolver shooters in the first place, and so by simple proportions, there aren't a people who could challenge for the title of a bigger division who are shooting Revolver now. You aren't losing out on very much competition, and people who enjoy wheelguns get to score themselves against the occasional other wheelgunner without having to do a bunch of scoresheet math.

 

People know where the heat is; it's probably less impressive being Revolver champion of your section or area than it is to be Open champion, unless you happen to be in the same section/area as the national Revolver heat, but there are a few steps missing in the logical chain between that and, "We should therefore eliminate all low-participation divisions." Why? What are small divisions actually hurting?

[Racinready300ex]

44 minutes ago, Bosshoss said:

I have shot lots of major matches where the division I like to shoot(Revo) was not even recognized and yet I still shot Revolver and paid same entry fee and travel expenses and motel and food as everyone else. I had no chance of winning anything but still shot and had fun doing what I enjoy knowing my entry fee helped some other division have a better prize table.

While I'm sure some are shooting the smaller divisions because their is less competition I can assure you that some of us are shooting the division we are because of the challenge and fun factor.

I don't care what division you shoot and and care even less that you care what division I shoot.

Killing a division so someone can  brag that they beat 43 shooters instead of 42 is ridiculous.

 

 

 

It's not really about the top 43 or 42 though. We currently have the means to add divisions and have added a couple since I've been shooting. It stands to reason there will be additional divisions added in the future as here we are talking about adding another one. But one thing we will never discuss is the possibility of removing a division for any reason. IMO this should be a train that can go in both directions. We have 8 divisions and 7 classifications. So we've split the match up into 56 segments with out getting into the categories. SC has what? 13 divisions? At some point you have enough separate categories that none of it matters anymore. You'd think we could a least get behind killing L10 since there is really no reason for it to be around. 

 

Do not fear, no one is going to remove your division. And I'm sure we'll see another new division in a few years. Just a matter of time. 

[Racinready300ex]

I'll at least find it amusing if Biden bans hi-cap mags like he wants to and we'll have to decide do we still keep Limited and L-10 and if not which one do we get rid of? I'd say we should probably keep them both just in case. 

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, Fishbreath said:

 

Sure, maybe they do, but let me turn the question back on you: why do you care if it's easier to be Revolver champion of Area Whatever with three guys shooting than it is to be Open champion?

 

That was the point of the analogy in my post above. The more champions you have the less any one of them matters. So  by handing out more awards you diminish the value of the hard work those guys at the top put in.

 

We can all say we don't care about the 1%, and were just here to have fun with our friends. But that's not really true or we would care so much about killing divisions.

[obsessiveshooter]

Limited 10 doesn't need to exist just in case of a ban.  There is no Open 10 or PCC 10. Or CO 10.   In states with bans, everything is 10 rounds.  If we ended up with a National ban with no workarounds, everything would be 10 rounds nationally.  

[Fishbreath]

4 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

The more champions you have the less any one of them matters.

 

This is the point where we disagree. The existence of a Revolver or L10 champion doesn't in any way diminish the prestige of an Open or CO win, in my book.

[cheby]

9 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

LOL you're right.  It's the absolute opposite of dilution.

Slowly.

There are a limited amount of strong, really good shooters in any area, as well as at the national level. If there are many divisions, that means that the number of the strong competitors in any single divisions is declining. For example, instead, say, 10 M and GM in Production, there would be 5 in Production and 5 in CO. Then 3 in Production, 5 in CO and 2 in PCC. Everybody is a winner, LOL. 

To me the main reason to shoot USPSA is the competition. The adrenaline rush is addictive. If I find myself in the division with 3 shooters, I will have to find a different division 

[SGT_Schultz]

6 hours ago, cheby said:

Slowly.

There are a limited amount of strong, really good shooters in any area, as well as at the national level. If there are many divisions, that means that the number of the strong competitors in any single divisions is declining. For example, instead, say, 10 M and GM in Production, there would be 5 in Production and 5 in CO. Then 3 in Production, 5 in CO and 2 in PCC. Everybody is a winner, LOL. 

To me the main reason to shoot USPSA is the competition. The adrenaline rush is addictive. If I find myself in the division with 3 shooters, I will have to find a different division 

 

That's your theory.  That's not what's happening in reality. 

 

The last paragraph is key to understanding all of you who want to kill divisions you don't even participate in.  You want to project your desires and motivations on everyone else.

 

Have you ever considered that why you play this game may not be why others play this game?

[DirkD]

What is the reason L10 is a division? 

 

If there is a magazine restriction all divisions have to follow the statute so L10 is kind of pointless. 

[RangerTrace]

39 minutes ago, DirkD said:

What is the reason L10 is a division? 

 

If there is a magazine restriction all divisions have to follow the statute so L10 is kind of pointless. 

I'm pretty sure it's so people who live in restricted states can still shoot doublestack 1911s or guys with single stacks can use 10 rounders and still shoot L10.

[RJH]

Part of me thinks there's too many divisions and part of me thinks it's pretty easy to click on the overall scores on practiscore to see who the real champ is. So I end up at the point of I don't really care. Like I said earlier I wouldn't mind a combined low cap division and I am a low cap shooter a lot of the time. But it's also pretty easy for me to just not give a crap lol

[DirkD]

2 hours ago, RangerTrace said:

I'm pretty sure it's so people who live in restricted states can still shoot doublestack 1911s or guys with single stacks can use 10 rounders and still shoot L10.

If they are in a restricted area, all divisions have to comply 3.3.1

Edited January 19, 2021 by DirkD

[Sarge]

2 hours ago, RangerTrace said:

I'm pretty sure it's so people who live in restricted states can still shoot doublestack 1911s or guys with single stacks can use 10 rounders and still shoot L10.

Since any gun in a restricted state is a 10 rounder I think the reason to keep L10 is actually so they can compete in free states without needing to have different mags or guns

[RangerTrace]

1 hour ago, Sarge said:

Since any gun in a restricted state is a 10 rounder I think the reason to keep L10 is actually so they can compete in free states without needing to have different mags or guns

I think thats what I meant, but it may not read that way......come on Sarge, you are supposed to be able to read between the lines!!

[MHicks]

In California you can't buy standard capacity mags at the store. Limited to 10 rounders. But if you already legally possess them you can use them. The standard USPSA divisions are offered at matches. People new to competition shooting probably don't have the standard capacity mags.

[rishii]

L10 and the 10 round production preceded the current rule book to let guys like me shoot a major without having to  borrow magazines, but I also feel having separate classifications for L10 and limited was stupid.

 

now back on topic, do we really want another division where you "need" a 5K blaster to be competitive, we jokingly call CO open lite, welfare open etc.  but CO is where you put a dot on a glock and you can be competitive for around a grand.

 

If you're looking for a division for you 2011 with a dot, we'll gladly welcome you in open

[Michael303]

48 minutes ago, rishii said:

L10 and the 10 round production preceded the current rule book to let guys like me shoot a major without having to  borrow magazines, but I also feel having separate classifications for L10 and limited was stupid.

 

now back on topic, do we really want another division where you "need" a 5K blaster to be competitive, we jokingly call CO open lite, welfare open etc.  but CO is where you put a dot on a glock and you can be competitive for around a grand.

 

If you're looking for a division for you 2011 with a dot, we'll gladly welcome you in open

 

No one needs a 5k gun to be competitive.  You just need something decent and put in the work.

 

Tony Wong is a CO GM shooting a Glock 26.

 

https://youtu.be/LHe81qKET2k

https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/285432-the-gun-doesnt-matter/

[pskys2]

On 1/18/2021 at 1:00 PM, Racinready300ex said:

 

This is another part I don't get. You have little care about the awards, yet you want your firearm choice to have a award even if there are only a handful of shooters. If you really didn't care you'd be fine with the division going away. You can still shoot the gun in Open (I think you can still shoot revo in prod) you're just less likely to win the award you don't care about anyway.

I never said I didn't strive for an award in anything.  I tend to be goal driven.  I just enjoy the journey and the award is the prize.  I don't expect a participation trophy though, so if I'm the only one in say Revolver, I'm not hurting anyone else, not diluting the talent pool, not taking away from anyone's enjoyment and I then am reduced to comparing my results in an overall format (fwiw with a Revolver I tend to end up above 50% of even my local clubs overall results even with the Open/PCC included and there are many GM/M's there).

My question is why is it a desire to kill off low participation Divisions?  If they are low in attendance there is very little impact in the other Division talent pools.  Unless giving out trophies for a Division with few people which USPSA doesn't require there isn't a negative financial impact on matches?  Since most matches go with Prize Drawings the only downside is there would be a few more competitors at the match that would reduce the chances of being drawn higher?  

And at what number point does a Division be due for the axe?

Now if you are alluding to the costs of running a National Championship the trend has been for stand alone matches to be well attended, the Division options available reduces some Divisions participation levels.  But if you're already putting on a championship and awards, trophies and prizes are based on numbers it costs no extra?  Unless you consider that the 30+ who signed up for Revolver, 20 for L10, 55+ for Production (all general numbers for comparison) might not shoot at all.  And to whom does that benefit.

[pskys2]

On 1/18/2021 at 12:40 PM, Racinready300ex said:

 

 

 

So why would you not add any new divisions? It's not crazy for a Area match to have 500 shooters and one L10 shooter. If that's okay why not add more divisions? I hear a lot of guys want Limted minor, and SAO-CO. I know one guy that wants to shoot his wheel gun in CO, so Revo-CO. There is three off the top of my head. Limited minor will likely split limited in half at least, which wouldn't be a bad thing. 

 

I originally wished they would allow Revolvers in CO, with the change to 140mm mags it did become a moot point.

I wasn't saying never have new divisions, just they need to be relevant with valid platform differences from other Divisions.  There is a valid difference in platforms in Open, Limited, Revolver and PCC.  L10 is valid in several states, but since Limited can't be run with hi-caps in some locales it is a moot point and is one of the few that does seem to be questionable, even then I'd not say eliminate it for attendance but due to other relevant criteria.  The platforms of Open, Limited, PCC and Revolver have multiple differences that are not easily, or even possible to, overcome.  

If one really wants to reduce Divisions, combining L10, SS and Production would make more sense than eliminating say Revolver, just due to the fact that all 3 Divisions can be competitive with 10 round magazines and minor scoring.  Just thoughts as Production has definitely morphed away from its original intent.

As for the Revolver and optics, it is such a lightly active division that I'd not worry if they went back to our roots.  Open it up, if you can drag it to the line in a holster go for it.  Major/Minor no round limits.  And I'd still compete in it.

Or all of us go back to our roots.  Heads up NO Divisions at all.  I'd still compete.

[pskys2]

On 1/18/2021 at 11:49 AM, SGT_Schultz said:

LOL you're right.  It's the absolute opposite of dilution.

Unless someone like JM shows up, he's definitely salty with anything that goes boom!   And ups the talent level to the detriment of all us mortals!

[Gcarr]

I’m all for changing up CO a little. Make it 2 Classes... Production Optics (what we have now) and Limited Optics ( minor only, 140mm mags, single action triggers and small magwells. Optic must be slide mounted and no comp. 

 

Besides that ... we have single action striker fired guns legally in CO now, just not single action hammer fired guns. Study on single action striker fired triggers and you will find a bunch of them have excellent triggers. Example - Glock is a double action striker and Canik is a single action striker. Do not underestimate some of the striker triggers. Once a trigger gets to a high level... how much  of an advantage is just a little better anyways? 

[echotango]

A striker fired trigger does compare to a good 1911/2011 trigger.  

Edited January 31, 2021 by echotango

[Gcarr]

3 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

So instead of making it easy for the majority of those who shoot limited to try or switch to your imaginary division, now they have to sink more money in mags/barrels/guns?

 

f*#king brilliant

 

Not that your idea will ever get traction but I thought I'd point that out for you.

Never said anything about saving anyone any money or making it easy for the majority of any class switching to it! 
 

Your post reminds me of something that would be on CNN... Gezzz! 

[SGT_Schultz]

4 hours ago, Gcarr said:

Never said anything about saving anyone any money or making it easy for the majority of any class switching to it! 
 

Your post reminds me of something that would be on CNN... Gezzz! 

 

That IS the point

 

If you make this new imaginary division minor ONLY, what does that do to the majority of Limited competitors?

 

How likely is it that those who are most likely to switch don't, if they need new barrels/magazines/guns/dies/etc/etc?

 

LOL that's why 99.9% of these ill-thought out ideas go nowhere.

Edited January 31, 2021 by SGT_Schultz

[DirkD]

On 1/31/2021 at 10:15 AM, echotango said:

A striker fired trigger does compare to a good 1911/2011 trigger.  

BS