Gcarr Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 On 1/31/2021 at 1:22 PM, SGT_Schultz said: That IS the point If you make this new imaginary division minor ONLY, what does that do to the majority of Limited competitors? How likely is it that those who are most likely to switch don't, if they need new barrels/magazines/guns/dies/etc/etc? LOL that's why 99.9% of these ill-thought out ideas go nowhere. The majority of limited shooters can still shoot limited. CO is not for everyone, but if they wanted to change over... add a dot to the slide and less powder in their load and they are there. They already have the right mags, belts and holsters. Sir... if you feel like another class split with minor and major scoring is the way to go... you sir are entitled to your opinion and should cast your vote that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 Adding more divisions doesn't dilute the sport..... Lets think it out. Right now the big divisions are Lim, Open, and CO right? So lets look at a 250ish shooter section match coming up. This match CO has 70 shooters and so does open, we'll split CO into CO & CO-SAO, so CO and Open will likely loose some shooters. What % do we hope moves to the new division? Even split instead of two 70 shooter divisions we have 3 45 shooter divisions? Now limited is a little smaller, 40 shooters, we'll split that into L and L-minor(we can find a bunch of threads asking for this) probably going to cut that to 20 and 20 in these two divisions. Prod only has 30 shooters, (really hurting from all these new divisions) I'd bet half of those guys jump to L-minor. Now prod has 15 shooters? So what's the break down look like now? Lim-20 Lim minor - 35 Open 45 CO 45 COSAO 45 Prod 15 PCC 20 SS 6 Rev 2 L10 2 Go back a couple years ago and Prod would have had 100 shooters, now it's down to 30 and if we add L-minor it's going to be in the same boat as SS, and L10 for sure. And L-major division isn't far behind. But, we're certainly not watering down the sport. Lets say we add these two divisions, I'd bet in less then 3 years you'll see threads about some other new division that people want. What we'll never do is talk about rolling back a division that isn't working. Why? Look at this thread, we clearly don't want to kill a division with 2 shooters. So why would ever kill one with 10 or 15? How long before the big divisions only have 20 shooters at a major match? At what point does it all become irrelevant like IDPA? Maybe I'm wrong and we can support 13 divisions like SC and there is still plenty of room to grow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RacerX1166 Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 On 1/19/2021 at 5:56 AM, DirkD said: What is the reason L10 is a division? L10 was created back in 1994, when manufacturing hi cap mags became prohibited. Many folks had existing Limited guns, with hi cap mags, but those just getting into Limited were handicapped with their 10 rounders. L10 was the fix for that. Interestingly, the law allowed you to repair existing hi caps mags and I heard some rather sad stories of those shooters who'd run over theirs with a lawnmower (90's version of a boating accident) and would have to buy all new components. Such tragedy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posvar Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 Lots of talk on social media about this becoming a reality in the near future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 5 minutes ago, Posvar said: Lots of talk on social media about this becoming a reality in the near future. Where please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 My opinion; Any division that allows 2011’s will become a 2011 division. Just because a few more participants want to use their current gun in this division does not mean USPSA should pander to them. Each division should have its own pro’s and con’s plus a clearly defined objective. The core divisions need to complement the other divisions while offering clear choices between them. Find the division for which your gun/setup is eligible, and learn to master the tool within those confines… that’s the challenge of IPSC/USPSA. Changing the divisions to make them easier or ‘more fun’ turns a sport into a pastime/hobby. This is a sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinister4 Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 We should be allowed to shoot CO with iron sights if we choose. Another idea I like is to make the "A" zone 1/2 its current size But i'll shoot limited or open and be happy if things stay as they are now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 more participation ribbons... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 12 minutes ago, Sinister4 said: .Another idea I like is to make the "A" zone 1/2 its current size One reason why I liked the IPSC target, the smaller ‘A’ zone encourages accuracy, plus they hold up better in bad weather. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gcarr Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 In my opinion… Production Optics and Limited Optics (minor) would be the right answer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 My continuing opinion is to just put a trigger pull weight limit on the single-action hammer-guns that's more than a light striker gun or DA/SA second shot and drive on. 3.5, 4 lbs, whatever works. It's not rocket-science to make the different action types comparable and it would head us a bit back towards "all guns compete together equally" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davsco Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 36 minutes ago, shred said: My continuing opinion is to just put a trigger pull weight limit NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. plus it's not all about trigger pull weight. it's more the geometry. i def don't want to have to f around with my gun to get the trigger pull up or down, and you can only imagine how inconsistent measuring this would be at a match, vs the ease of a mag gauge or chrono. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 Well, it's been proven at limited Nationals the last couple of years that it doesn't take a 2011 to win. So I think none of it matters at all and I don't honestly care if they let 2011s into carryops or not. A sig 320, a canick shooting minor, and a Glock were top three at limited Nationals so thinking that those guns can't compete at the highest levels doesn't appear to be a reasonable excuse anymore. Even if they let 2011s into carryops, I'll still shoot my plastic crapper gun and be happy. And if they let a 2011 into carry ops, it wouldn't surprise me a bit if Max was still winning with his 320. Or JJ with his Beretta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwontanamo Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 if they did that, it would bring in a lot of the competitors from the 3-gun community just like PCC did. That also means more sales for some of the popular custom gun companies out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posvar Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 14 minutes ago, Kwontanamo said: if they did that, it would bring in a lot of the competitors from the 3-gun community just like PCC did. That also means more sales for some of the popular custom gun companies out there. Exactly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posvar Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 21 hours ago, Sarge said: Where please? Mostly some competition related ( I say that loosely) FB pages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 1 hour ago, davsco said: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. plus it's not all about trigger pull weight. it's more the geometry. i def don't want to have to f around with my gun to get the trigger pull up or down, and you can only imagine how inconsistent measuring this would be at a match, vs the ease of a mag gauge or chrono. On the single-action 2011-type guns only. It's not hard to measure; NRA's been doing it for decades, IPSCs been doing it for many years on a much wider variety of guns. Just don't be that guy that has to shoot 125.000001 PF ammo or a 3.50001 lb trigger and it'll be fine. Swap in a new sear spring if you want to use the same frame for other divisions. That's the only geometry change needed for a 2011 starting with a lighter trigger. Don't want to mess with any of that? Don't shoot a 2011 in CO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balakay Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 32 minutes ago, Posvar said: Exactly Because 3 gun is Uber-popular and they have no place to shoot their guns in USPSA. Except Open. Sorry Matt but that Staccatttttto stays home! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posvar Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 9 minutes ago, Balakay said: Because 3 gun is Uber-popular and they have no place to shoot their guns in USPSA. Except Open. Sorry Matt but that Staccatttttto stays home! Haha. It will stay home. Open is my jam. I do truly believe that if this does happen it’s because someone wants to sell a bunch of guns. Prove me wrong later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balakay Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 3 minutes ago, Posvar said: . I do truly believe that if this does happen it’s because someone wants to sell a bunch of guns. i agree with this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathanb Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 8 minutes ago, Posvar said: Haha. It will stay home. Open is my jam. I do truly believe that if this does happen it’s because someone wants to sell a bunch of guns. Prove me wrong later. Funny enough that’s the story I heard. One of the bigger 2011 companies was pushing for it. A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 semi-custom 2011 builders have figure out that they can build 9mm minor guns that don't break as often and come back for warranty, so naturally they'd rather focus on that. Personally I don't think a 2011 would have any advantage in CO, but many people still like to play with expensive toys (even tho they seem more likely to have feed/magazine problems than modern guns). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzt Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 I'm against adding Divisions. 9mm minor in a 2011 with a dot already has a Division. It is Open minor. The only people who want to move that to CO are those not good enough to compete against major scoring in Open. They want to move to CO so they have an advantage over someone shooting a plastic gun with a dot. Gimme a break. BTW, I am much, much faster shooting 9mm minor out of my Open gun than I am shooting my XD with dot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 1 hour ago, Posvar said: I do truly believe that if this does happen it’s because someone wants to sell a bunch of guns. Prove me wrong later. Also the most likely reason for all the changes to Production/CO that we have seen the past few years… I suspect it was mostly vendor-driven, and not member-driven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 (edited) 3 minutes ago, BritinUSA said: Also the most likely reason for all the changes to Production/CO that we have seen the past few years… I suspect it was mostly vendor-driven, and not member-driven. everyone I personally know who shoots CO likes increased weight limit and the ability to personalize their guns more and make them fit better. I have not heard a single person outside this forum complain about the changes or wish they could go back to the good old 10-round days. Edited January 13, 2022 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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