What would it take for you to shoot revolver?

[Mcfoto]

I know this discussion is in the USPSA forum but if you’re partial to a standard 6 shot, then ICORE classic division is where you want to play. 

[MikeBurgess]

I see the argument that 6 shot guns are dead in USPSA being made and by and large they are, but as one that shot 6 shooters then 8 shooters I can say the 8 shooters are way more fun in this game. 

I also see the argument that because 8 shooters are the competitive choice and there are not that many to choose from and they are not cheep, and call 70% BS on that. yes you CAN buy a police trade in G22 and shoot limited for cheep but nobody really does that 95% of the shooters in most every division are shooting some sort of competition specific pistol that costs well over a grand, plus mags plus rig, with zero effort you can get 100% set up for Revo with a 929, belt, holster, moon rack, moons for $1500 or less, and that is a rig that is fully competitive at any level, the only other divisions that you can truly be top level competitive gear wise for that kind of money are Production and SS. 

[RJH]

44 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

I see the argument that 6 shot guns are dead in USPSA being made and by and large they are, but as one that shot 6 shooters then 8 shooters I can say the 8 shooters are way more fun in this game. 

I also see the argument that because 8 shooters are the competitive choice and there are not that many to choose from and they are not cheep, and call 70% BS on that. yes you CAN buy a police trade in G22 and shoot limited for cheep but nobody really does that 95% of the shooters in most every division are shooting some sort of competition specific pistol that costs well over a grand, plus mags plus rig, with zero effort you can get 100% set up for Revo with a 929, belt, holster, moon rack, moons for $1500 or less, and that is a rig that is fully competitive at any level, the only other divisions that you can truly be top level competitive gear wise for that kind of money are Production and SS. 

 

Here is where you are wrong: 

I am a b class shooter in every division except ss in which i am A class and CO where i am unclassified.  I shoot a lightly modded xdm and i always tend to shoot to my class wherever I shoot, i even shot class level scores with an xdm 40 open gun.

 

This holds true with everything except revolver. I classified B back when it was still 6 shot. Did that with a GP and speedloaders shooting minor. But now since 8 shooters are legal and courses are 8 shot neutral and many times 8 shot required, the last match i shot revolver in i could not come close to the 8 shot guys because of all the standing reloads that they didn't have to make. Think stages that were basically forced 8,8,8 and how they would have to be shot with a 6 shot gun. So basically i got trounced by a couple of guys that were about 45 percent c class shooters, in revolver equipment matters more than any other division and to shoot to class in a match requires an 8 shot gun. However in any other division you can shoot to class with a gun that you probably have laying around, like a g22 that you gave 300 for and invested another 300 in. And you actually get to shoot against people.

 

I guess the main point is that a plastic 40 open gun is closer to an svi in performance than a 6 shot revo is to an 8 shooter. 

Edited February 11, 2020 by RJH

[cheby]

I am actually surprised that the thread about revolvers got 7 pages already. 

[RJH]

7 minutes ago, cheby said:

I am actually surprised that the thread about revolvers got 7 pages already. 

 

More people telling why they don't revolvers than people that actually shoot revolvers haha

[MikeBurgess]

37 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

Here is where you are wrong: 

I am a b class shooter in every division except ss in which i am A class and CO where i am unclassified.  I shoot a lightly modded xdm and i always tend to shoot to my class wherever I shoot, i even shot class level scores with an xdm 40 open gun.

 

This holds true with everything except revolver. I classified B back when it was still 6 shot. Did that with a GP and speedloaders shooting minor. But now since 8 shooters are legal and courses are 8 shot neutral and many times 8 shot required, the last match i shot revolver in i could not come close to the 8 shot guys because of all the standing reloads that they didn't have to make. Think stages that were basically forced 8,8,8 and how they would have to be shot with a 6 shot gun. So basically i got trounced by a couple of guys that were about 45 percent c class shooters, in revolver equipment matters more than any other division and to shoot to class in a match requires an 8 shot gun. However in any other division you can shoot to class with a gun that you probably have laying around, like a g22 that you gave 300 for and invested another 300 in. And you actually get to shoot against people.

 

I guess the main point is that a plastic 40 open gun is closer to an svi in performance than a 6 shot revo is to an 8 shooter. 

I agree there is no cheep plastic fantastic in the revolver world, but for a little more you can have the most competitive gun there is. that is unlike most divisions, where if you look at what most people that are competitive are shooting you will see they are spending way  more than $1500 for a full rig. 

 

even your XDM example is not that far off Gun $650 magwell $75 Mag extensions and springs x3 $150 Trigger kit $100 belt holsters and mag pouches $250 = $1175 for a rig that is not considered by most to be competitive in Limited, or for a couple hundred more you can have a rig in Revolver that is the standard for the division at the highest levels. 

 

I get that you can compete in the other divisions with budget guns and gear to test the waters and see if you like them, that is the only place Revo is actually lacking, once you decide you want to shoot it for real the investment is the same or less.

[RJH]

12 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

I agree there is no cheep plastic fantastic in the revolver world, but for a little more you can have the most competitive gun there is. that is unlike most divisions, where if you look at what most people that are competitive are shooting you will see they are spending way  more than $1500 for a full rig. 

 

even your XDM example is not that far off Gun $650 magwell $75 Mag extensions and springs x3 $150 Trigger kit $100 belt holsters and mag pouches $250 = $1175 for a rig that is not considered by most to be competitive in Limited, or for a couple hundred more you can have a rig in Revolver that is the standard for the division at the highest levels. 

 

I get that you can compete in the other divisions with budget guns and gear to test the waters and see if you like them, that is the only place Revo is actually lacking, once you decide you want to shoot it for real the investment is the same or less.

Really probably closer to 400 more, and for a one division gun, where a plastic fantastic in 40 can be very competitive in limited, l10,production (all these divisions have been won by plastic guns), and even carry ops though you give up a little capacity to a 9. And in all those divisions, including l10, there is a much stronger chance of having someone to shoot against.  So for 400 less than a revolver, you have a much more versatile gun, that has proven competitive enough to win at the highest levels,  or you can get a revolver that you basically get to shoot against yourself.  It is easy to see why revolver is on its way out, and allowing 8 shooters just sped it up.

 

Most people fool themselves on how much difference budget equipment matters vs top end as proven by glocks winning nationals,  but in revo, if you don't have an 8 shooter, it does matter tremendously.  Since 8 shooters have been allowed what is the highest a 6 shooter has been at nationals? Cause plastic guns shoot towards the top of the division in basically everything other than open, plastic open guns are a bad idea, almost as bad as revolver haha

[MikeBurgess]

1 minute ago, RJH said:

Really probably closer to 400 more, and for a one division gun, where a plastic fantastic in 40 can be very competitive in limited, l10,production (all these divisions have been won by plastic guns), and even carry ops though you give up a little capacity to a 9. And in all those divisions, including l10, there is a much stronger chance of having someone to shoot against.  So for 400 less than a revolver, you have a much more versatile gun, that has proven competitive enough to win at the highest levels,  or you can get a revolver that you basically get to shoot against yourself.  It is easy to see why revolver is on its way out, and allowing 8 shooters just sped it up.

 

Most people fool themselves on how much difference budget equipment matters vs top end as proven by glocks winning nationals,  but in revo, if you don't have an 8 shooter, it does matter tremendously.  Since 8 shooters have been allowed what is the highest a 6 shooter has been at nationals? Cause plastic guns shoot towards the top of the division in basically everything other than open, plastic open guns are a bad idea, almost as bad as revolver haha

Probably less than 400, a friend of mine bout everything from scratch this weekend for Revo, a 929 and all the gear for sub $1500 that's just buying the gun at a local shop new and everything at regular retail not special or sale priced or used. 

 

I don't know the whole history of who shot what at nationals since 8 shooters came in but I know 10th place this year shot Major. 

[RJH]

1 minute ago, MikeBurgess said:

Probably less than 400, a friend of mine bout everything from scratch this weekend for Revo, a 929 and all the gear for sub $1500 that's just buying the gun at a local shop new and everything at regular retail not special or sale priced or used. 

 

I don't know the whole history of who shot what at nationals since 8 shooters came in but I know 10th place this year shot Major. 

Wonder what class and percent of the match winner that was? And is 10th equal to 80th or so in production/limited cause of the disparity in participation? 

 

But i guess that guy can always say he was top 10 at nationals lol

[ChuckS]

why wonder? (The companion match was Single Stack)

[Racinready300ex]

6 minutes ago, RJH said:

Wonder what class and percent of the match winner that was? And is 10th equal to 80th or so in production/limited cause of the disparity in participation? 

 

But i guess that guy can always say he was top 10 at nationals lol

 

Based on ChuckS's screen cap at 77%, that would of been good for 49th in production. About 40th in Limited,  and 58th on Open. 

[RJH]

Thanks for posting and proves my point. A former national champion GM shot a low A class score with a 6 shooter. Meanwhile glocks are winning nationals against 7000 dollar limited guns. I know, i know, the glocks weren't stock, but then again are those revolvers stock? I got a feeling cliff's was pretty racy.  

 

Basically revolver in uspsa is a joke. And I like revolvers.  So I've bounced around some on this thread, but i think I have it now. What would it take for me to shoot revolver?  It would have to at least be less of a joke. Like at least 20 shooters at each area match and 100 at nationals.  If in all uspsa that don't happen then lets just kill it off. So there you go, if revolver division meets those paltry requirements on 2020/2021, i will buy and shoot a revo in 2022. I will even shoot an area match and if nats is close enough i will shoot it too. If revo doesn't make that count we kill it off, deal?

[MikeBurgess]

42 minutes ago, RJH said:

Thanks for posting and proves my point. A former national champion GM shot a low A class score with a 6 shooter. Meanwhile glocks are winning nationals against 7000 dollar limited guns. I know, i know, the glocks weren't stock, but then again are those revolvers stock? I got a feeling cliff's was pretty racy.  

 

Basically revolver in uspsa is a joke. And I like revolvers.  So I've bounced around some on this thread, but i think I have it now. What would it take for me to shoot revolver?  It would have to at least be less of a joke. Like at least 20 shooters at each area match and 100 at nationals.  If in all uspsa that don't happen then lets just kill it off. So there you go, if revolver division meets those paltry requirements on 2020/2021, i will buy and shoot a revo in 2022. I will even shoot an area match and if nats is close enough i will shoot it too. If revo doesn't make that count we kill it off, deal?

Just so we are clear that kills L10 to and may come close to killing SS ( I didn't look at all the area matches) also.  

[RJH]

15 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

Just so we are clear that kills L10 to and may come close to killing SS ( I didn't look at all the area matches) also.  

If a division can't pull 20 at an area match and 100 at nats, is it really a division?   Maybe they could make all these low number divisions provisional for 2 years and and if they can't make the grade, cut them. So sure, that works for me

[MikeBurgess]

1 hour ago, RJH said:

If a division can't pull 20 at an area match and 100 at nats, is it really a division?   Maybe they could make all these low number divisions provisional for 2 years and and if they can't make the grade, cut them. So sure, that works for me

Serious question, what do you gain by killing a division? 

[Rnlinebacker]

Serious question, what do you gain by killing a division? 

Communism lol

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[RJH]

32 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

Serious question, what do you gain by killing a division? 

 

I could say too many divisions water the field down,but that don't hold up since  revo and the divisions you listed don't seem to have anyone in them any way. I guess it just seems pointless to me to hang on to what doesn't really get used.  So i will counter your question with a couple of questions:

 

What is enough divisions?

 

If 50 people would shoot a compact carry division at nationals should we make it?

 

At what point  do divisions become pointless? 40 people at nats, 30, 20 etc?

 

At what point do we determine has a division run its course?  I think revo and l10 probably have and ss is getting close. I honestly can't think of a reason to keep revolver division, they should probably roll into production 

[MikeBurgess]

2 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

I could say too many divisions water the field down,but that don't hold up since  revo and the divisions you listed don't seem to have anyone in them any way. I guess it just seems pointless to me to hang on to what doesn't really get used.  So i will counter your question with a couple of questions:

 

What is enough divisions?

 

If 50 people would shoot a compact carry division at nationals should we make it?

 

At what point  do divisions become pointless? 40 people at nats, 30, 20 etc?

 

At what point do we determine has a division run its course?  I think revo and l10 probably have and ss is getting close. I honestly can't think of a reason to keep revolver division, they should probably roll into production 

I think there is a large difference between creating a division and killing a division. 

 

Participation numbers are hard to put a number to, the question is what is a better competition, 100 shooters with 5 GM, 10 M, 5 A, 35 B, 30 C, and 15  D  or 20 shooters with 15G M and 5 M? it is likely harder to win the 20 shooter match than the 100 shooter one but most tend to believe the 100 shooter match is somehow more valid but is it? 

 

 

 

[RJH]

2 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

I think there is a large difference between creating a division and killing a division. 

 

Participation numbers are hard to put a number to, the question is what is a better competition, 100 shooters with 5 GM, 10 M, 5 A, 35 B, 30 C, and 15  D  or 20 shooters with 15G M and 5 M? it is likely harder to win the 20 shooter match than the 100 shooter one but most tend to believe the 100 shooter match is somehow more valid but is it? 

 

 

 

 

 

Well if there are 15 gm and 5 M class shooters i would say that division is not drawing in any new blood and is generally not working.   And really in any division there only seem to be a few (maybe 5) shooters who have a chance at Nats regardless of their class.  As we all know there are GMs and there are gms.  So i would think the 100 shooter match would be a bit more valid.  Also back when I shot not near as well, revolver was the first division that i had an A class classifier, so I tend to believe it might be easier to make GM in revo, though i am not saying that it is easy by any means.  I do think participation numbers is what divisions should be judged on, though I am not sure what the end number is.  The competitor in me says if you can't hold your own then you lose, and revolver really is not holding its own.

 

So what would it take, in your opinion, to say having revolver division is pointless and a waste of digital space on practiscore, and if it is just nostalgia, it might be time to move on?

 

Also if USPSA capped divisions at 8 and was going to introduce a new division, what argument could be made to keep revolver?

 

 

[Rnlinebacker]

 
I could say too many divisions water the field down,but that don't hold up since  revo and the divisions you listed don't seem to have anyone in them any way. I guess it just seems pointless to me to hang on to what doesn't really get used.  So i will counter your question with a couple of questions:
 
What is enough divisions?
 
If 50 people would shoot a compact carry division at nationals should we make it?
 
At what point  do divisions become pointless? 40 people at nats, 30, 20 etc?
 
At what point do we determine has a division run its course?  I think revo and l10 probably have and ss is getting close. I honestly can't think of a reason to keep revolver division, they should probably roll into production 

Yes we should because this is America and people should have options & freedom to shoot whatever they like

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[IHAVEGAS]

1 hour ago, RJH said:

 

 

Well if there are 15 gm and 5 M class shooters i would say that division is not drawing in any new blood and is generally not working.   And really in any division there only seem to be a few (maybe 5) shooters who have a chance at Nats regardless of their class.  As we all know there are GMs and there are gms.  So i would think the 100 shooter match would be a bit more valid.  Also back when I shot not near as well, revolver was the first division that i had an A class classifier, so I tend to believe it might be easier to make GM in revo, though i am not saying that it is easy by any means.  I do think participation numbers is what divisions should be judged on, though I am not sure what the end number is.  The competitor in me says if you can't hold your own then you lose, and revolver really is not holding its own.

 

So what would it take, in your opinion, to say having revolver division is pointless and a waste of digital space on practiscore, and if it is just nostalgia, it might be time to move on?

 

Also if USPSA capped divisions at 8 and was going to introduce a new division, what argument could be made to keep revolver?

 

 

 

Kind of reminds me of the death of Harley Davidson in the 1960's when the Japanese started putting better/cheaper/faster bikes on the road. Most people under 30 have probably never even seen a Harley. 

Edited February 12, 2020 by IHAVEGAS

[perttime]

7 hours ago, RJH said:

...

Also if USPSA capped divisions at 8 and was going to introduce a new division, what argument could be made to keep revolver?

 

 

It is the only Revolver Division, while bottom feeders already have 7. If you can't fit your gun in one of 7 Divisions, you are doing something wrong.

[SGT_Schultz]

3 hours ago, perttime said:

 

It is the only Revolver Division, while bottom feeders already have 7. If you can't fit your gun in one of 7 Divisions, you are doing something wrong.

 

This

 

Sorry, @RJH I was following you on how revo is pretty much a dead end but you lost me at killing it.  It will save ZERO time and overhead for anyone, from HQ down to small club MDs to get rid of it.

 

If a few cats still want to shoot it, it's absolutely no skin off your back or anyone else's.  And if by some miracle revo picks up and actually starts drawing people away from other divisions the answer isn't to kill revo, the answer is to figure out why others are leaving what they were doing.

[RJH]

6 hours ago, perttime said:

 

It is the only Revolver Division, while bottom feeders already have 7. If you can't fit your gun in one of 7 Divisions, you are doing something wrong.

 

My point is proven even more.  8 divisions, 7 are auto loaders, seems the ONE revolver division should be packed but instead pretty much no one shoots it.  So, I am not doing anything wrong, revolver shooters are.   Keeping a division with not only  no growth, but that is also hemorrhaging shooters with no turn around in sight seems pointless to me. 

 

I will ask you and @SGT_Schultz the same thing, if 30ish shooters at a nationals is not a small enough field to justify at least killing revolver nationals and possibly revo totally, what number is?  And don't forget revolvers are perfectly legal in production, L10, etc., so it wouldn't be that you couldn't shoot them, just that USPSA wouldn't be out the money hosting Nats for a division that no one shoots.  Well, that and a couple of people would lose a participation ribbon.  

 

PS I am not picking on revolver here, any division with the years of basically 0 participation should be scrapped IMO, but I don't keep shirts from the 90s that i never wear either

[IHAVEGAS]

24 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

I will ask you and @SGT_Schultz the same thing, if 30ish shooters at a nationals is not a small enough field to justify at least killing revolver nationals and possibly revo totally, what number is?  And don't forget revolvers are perfectly legal in production, L10, etc., so it wouldn't be that you couldn't shoot them, just that USPSA wouldn't be out the money hosting Nats for a division that no one shoots.  Well, that and a couple of people would lose a participation ribbon.  

 

PS I am not picking on revolver here, any division with the years of basically 0 participation should be scrapped IMO, but I don't keep shirts from the 90s that i never wear either

 

 

https://practiscore.com/results/new/36680

 

If people wanted big numbers at the nationals (I could care less but to each their own) they would move them back to the center of the country.