3-Gun Recession?

[farinx]

1 minute ago, iamspartacus said:

I’ve been the match director for a monthly 3 gun match for 5 years, I’ve done 5 stages at every match and we’ve never taken more than 5 hours to shoot the match. If the matches are taking longer than that it’s a failure on the part of the MD to design the match to flow. 

What’s your secret? Do you have any pics or videos of the stages ? How do you make the match flow so well?

[iamspartacus]

We have 4 bays and a rifle area that goes out to 220 yards. In the bays most of the stages are similar to USPSA stages in their set up. I usually have 3 of the stages use 2 guns and one of them require all 3. The long range stage usually involves rifle and shotgun. I try to set up the stages so they all have a winning time around 30 seconds. Making sure reset doesn’t take too long is also key to good flow. Not having more than 12 people per squad also helps. 

[geraldskip]

On 2/2/2020 at 7:54 PM, iamspartacus said:

We have 4 bays and a rifle area that goes out to 220 yards. In the bays most of the stages are similar to USPSA stages in their set up. I usually have 3 of the stages use 2 guns and one of them require all 3. The long range stage usually involves rifle and shotgun. I try to set up the stages so they all have a winning time around 30 seconds. Making sure reset doesn’t take too long is also key to good flow. Not having more than 12 people per squad also helps. 

 

This is key. I match directed a multigun last year and it was a HUGE pain compared to USPSA. You really have to have look at every single stage and make sure they all take about the same time. Also look at the stuff you have to reset. If you are throwing star after star downrange at the end of the run, it takes too much time. 

 

Set up Texas stars in the beginning of the stage, in spots where the participants can start resetting while the shooter is still going. Set up KD steel the same way. Paper/quick reset at the end. 

 

Match flow is your new god. I did 8 stages with about 80 shooters in less than 8 hours (8am to 3pm). If a stage takes longer than 1 hour to run a squad, you done eff'ed up. We did awards and prize tables and were done by 5pm (including tear down).

[erwos]

This is a fascinating thread, because it contradicts what I've been seeing around me.

 

Locally here in the NoVA-DC-MD region, 3-gun actually got much more popular when the local range (AGC) finished up their action bays and started running matches. None of the shots are all that hard due to the length of the bays (max ~85yds), so it's much more newbie friendly, except when the MD is an a_-hole and puts up tiny pistol targets at 20yds. It's the Mid-Atlantic ruleset with a 2 gun option, but I'd say only about 10-15% of shooters go for 2 gun. I bought an M3K Freedom and an Invictus carrier and have not felt any limitations besides my terrible shooting skills. For reference, I just spent more money than that on a Sig P320 X5 Legion for USPSA CO, so not sure I buy into the "OMG shotguns are so expensive" complaints.

 

I will also say that I'm surprised that no one seems to have offered the obvious fix for shotgun reload complaints: modify the Stealth division to allow for mag-fed shotguns with a mag limit of 8rds. That prevents dudes from rolling in with 20rd mags and just clearing stages without a reload, forces some degree of ammo management, and also doesn't put people who can reliably twin or quad load at a huge disadvantage on most stages.

Edited February 18, 2020 by erwos

[DyNo!]

I was in the first 3GN pro series - was a bunch of fun. Finished high enough not to have to re-qualify for the next series, but I opted not to and left to go live overseas. It looks like 3-Gun almost died while I was gone! (And PCC became a big thing)

 

Many of the folks I used to shoot with are no longer active - and I suppose it's time to look at things in hindsight since I've been a USPSA member for almost 20 years.

 

If I come back to the states, I'll probably just shoot PCC. (Heck, I'm tempted to do it in Asia under IPSC!)

 

I really hated shotgun - hated it. I'd always ditch it as soon as possible. If it were up to me, I wouldn't even bring it to the match. To "ban" that from this discussion means the OP already knows.

 

With the introduction of PCC to USPSA/IPSC, I think it's too late to get 3-Gun back to where it once was. It's better to consolidate under one umbrella and USPSA has the infrastructure to do that.

 

Burning through a pistol stage with a 5.56 rifle was the time I had the most fun, and if now it's an option to do that at every pistol match, I won't be making it to nearly as many 3-Gun matches.

 

I'm tempted to put my 3-Gun stuff up for sale but it looks like I waited a few too many years to do that. 

Edited February 21, 2020 by DyNo!

[RolexJohn]

Back in they heyday of 3GN, I shot 3-Gun nearly every weekend.  Where I live in Ohio, we had a local 3-Gun match every weekend of the month.  Now I shoot maybe 1 to 2 matches a year, and there's really only one monthly match that's less than an hours drive for me. 

 

Here are a few the factors as to why I don't shoot much 3-Gun:

 

-Match time is definitely and issue.  

-Shotgun is not an issue.  I actually came to love shooting shotgun in 3-Gun.

-The death of 3GN really hurt the appeal for the sport to me.  I really felt connected to 3GN.  

-Long distance rifle is a bigger issue for me than shotgun.  There is nowhere within a 2 hour drive that I can shoot appreciably further than 200 yards.  So I would HATE long distance rifle at the majors I shot.  

 

I miss the 3-gun of old.  I wasn't half bad either - I was starting to crack the top 10 locally, and our area has a lot of great shooters.  Maybe next year I'll shoot more 3-gun and less USPSA and Steel Challenge. 

[kurtm]

Not to be "that guy", but I am going to be that guy, but 3-gun had been going on for well over 20 years before 3 Gun Nation came along. Some folks liked it, a lot didn't, and I for one consider it the start of the down turn of 3-gun sports. I can attest that 3 Gun Nation is NOT the 3-Gun of old.

[kellyn]

What Kurt said!

 

[hoodhazard]

The smart people have told me repeatedly over the years,  it's leadership that drives all these things.

[outerlimits]

this slide was from the beard's presentation to the board this month.  delta between superstition and MG nats sez it all.

[kurtm]

Who is "the Beard"?

USPSA has moved the match all over, it has very seldom had a dedicated 3-gun staff. SMM3-G in the same place since 1996, dedicated staff, still has approximately the same rule set since 1999. Still has great stages.

Edited March 3, 2020 by kurtm

[TonytheTiger]

1 minute ago, kurtm said:

Who is "the Beard"?

Mike Foley.

[kurtm]

Thanks.

 

[Nolan]

2 hours ago, kurtm said:

Who is "the Beard"?

USPSA has moved the match all over, it has very seldom had a dedicated 3-gun staff. SMM3-G in the same place since 1996, dedicated staff, still has approximately the same rule set since 1999. Still has great stages.

 

When you have to ask "where are the USPSA Multigun Nationals, this year?", it pretty much means low attendance.

 

Nolan

[toothandnail]

Come shoot the MO3GC match, one of the best run in the nation.
https://clubs.practiscore.com/2020-missouri-3-gun-championship/register

[kurtm]

I would really like to, but it is the exact time as SMM3-G, and always has been right around that time frame. Just can't get to both, although I would like to!

[toothandnail]

51 minutes ago, kurtm said:

I would really like to, but it is the exact time as SMM3-G, and always has been right around that time frame. Just can't get to both, although I would like to!

Yeah, we purposely set a different date, 3rd weekend in March, when we started 7 years ago. To not schedule over them, they changed this year to the 3rd weekend.

 

Edited March 6, 2020 by toothandnail

[Az595]

Sorry,not productive.   

Edited May 9, 2020 by Az595
Not productive.

[Blockhead]

Are we going use Garands at HeMan???
 

I’ve seen it done by one of the RO’s at HE-Man.

“Prepare for Glory!”


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[Dan Sierpina]

1 hour ago, Blockhead said:

I’ve seen it done by one of the RO’s at HE-Man.

“Prepare for Glory!”


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Yup, George shoots his Garand. 

 

[pjb45]

On 3/3/2020 at 4:20 PM, kurtm said:

Who is "the Beard"?

USPSA has moved the match all over, it has very seldom had a dedicated 3-gun staff. SMM3-G in the same place since 1996, dedicated staff, still has approximately the same rule set since 1999. Still has great stages.

Great Stages===+++

There is a monthly Black Rifle match (match fills in about 90 seconds), monthly 2/3 G match (match fills in about 20 seconds), monthly PCC match at Rio Salado (SMM3G).  Most stages for the major match have been 'test driven' repeatedly, hence the major match runs on time.  A 500 yard shot or two is common. 300-400 yards shots always, 80-150 yards -yeppers, then paper blasting.  The crew puts in a huge mix of rifle targets.  The shotgun part is flat out fun, pistol-well it is Rio and those bastards put on the Desert Classic also.

The staff at SMM3G are experienced, efficient, and courteous. That makes a difference.

Kurt nailed it.  

Kelly was correct, it is hard to challenge excellent and make the a match easy for newcomers.

[Rockrover]

I’ve hear it said manny times;  “just come and bring what you got”, and “Just don’t DQ and you’ll have fun”.  “You won’t win, but try and learn”.

 

After a new prospect pages through the rules, tweaks and/or buys gear, loads up the car to drive 2 hours to a match, then get’s their doors blown off again and again, one can see why in the above post where Jack Weltch CEO of General Electric said “If you don’t have a competitive advantage, don’t compete”.  I can see where it might get frustrating to the more causal/curious beginner if they are lower bottom of the rankings over and over again.  Sure “just practice more” is often the answer, but for the more causal guys, that might not be the answer.  MDs have to learn to motivate the squads.

 

How can one get motivation amongst the squads?  Get the game competitive again.  I’ve often wondered if a handicap system, or having different class levels within a class...Like A and B could reignite motivation.  Put A’s with proven low handicaps and high match experience together with their own scoring and B’s for high handicaps and/or low match time together to keep the nervousness down and spark real competition amounts a like peer group.  This would influence the “competitive spirit” of both those in the A squad simultaneously with the B squad.  No one wants to get their you-know-what’s dumped in the dirt every match.  Then the top B level players get moved up automatically to A as to not sand-bag the Bs later on.

 

It will never be “fun” for a beginner/intermediate to be pared up with guy’s who rip up the course every weekend.  There’s got to be reward early if you want them coming back.

[mpeltier]

22 hours ago, Rockrover said:

I’ve hear it said manny times;  “just come and bring what you got”, and “Just don’t DQ and you’ll have fun”.  “You won’t win, but try and learn”.

 

After a new prospect pages through the rules, tweaks and/or buys gear, loads up the car to drive 2 hours to a match, then get’s their doors blown off again and again, one can see why in the above post where Jack Weltch CEO of General Electric said “If you don’t have a competitive advantage, don’t compete”.  I can see where it might get frustrating to the more causal/curious beginner if they are lower bottom of the rankings over and over again.  Sure “just practice more” is often the answer, but for the more causal guys, that might not be the answer.  MDs have to learn to motivate the squads.

 

How can one get motivation amongst the squads?  Get the game competitive again.  I’ve often wondered if a handicap system, or having different class levels within a class...Like A and B could reignite motivation.  Put A’s with proven low handicaps and high match experience together with their own scoring and B’s for high handicaps and/or low match time together to keep the nervousness down and spark real competition amounts a like peer group.  This would influence the “competitive spirit” of both those in the A squad simultaneously with the B squad.  No one wants to get their you-know-what’s dumped in the dirt every match.  Then the top B level players get moved up automatically to A as to not sand-bag the Bs later on.

 

It will never be “fun” for a beginner/intermediate to be pared up with guy’s who rip up the course every weekend.  There’s got to be reward early if you want them coming back.

If competitive shooting, 3-gun, USPSA etc were like this when I attended my first match well over 20 yrs ago......I would never have attended a second match. "Everyone gets a trophy" may work in the liberal school system for the kids, but the shooting sports is for big boys. Put your big boy pants on, come out and compete, learn from the best, and use that inspiration to drive you to move up. Its always been competitive. Its the complaints about "Gamers", "Leveling the playing field" and general "Circus stages" to trip up those with a better skill set that always (Even when I sucked worse than I do now) drove me crazy, and away from our roots of years gone by.

[StealthyBlagga]

As I mentioned earlier, we offer 2-Gun as a more accessible equipment division. Yes, I know it's not 3-Gun, but it means folks can try the sport with about half the gear and expense, and they are less likely to struggle with malfunctions if they are just running a stock Glock and AR15. Our local monthly multigun match accommodates 100 shooters and fills in less than a minute, so we must be doing something right.

 

One change we have recently implemented to address new shooters' frustration with slow progress is a Mentor Program. We have a cadre of experienced shooters who we give a free match entry in an early squad and then have them mentor a later squad. Advice covers stage strategy, shooting fundamentals, gear questions and anything else that the old hands took years to figure out. We get a lot of positive feedback on this program - newer and intermediate shooters greatly appreciate the insights shared, and do seem to improve faster. Best of all, they become repeat customers.

Edited March 8, 2021 by StealthyBlagga

[outerlimits]

The recession is now starting as a result of ammo.  Shotgun shells are the new unicorn.