Table Start

[mont1120]

Assume a WSB as states that a "pistol is loaded, placed on table with trigger centered on X."

 

If there is no wording stating it could not be supported by something, is it not legal to do so? If the WSB did not forbid the action, like stating it should be unsupported,  is there a rule that would automatically deny supporting the firearm on the table? I have gone through the rules twice and find nothing that would forbid such a  start.

[DKorn]

What would the shooter be using to prop the gun up?

 

if it’s a magazine, 5.2.4 says that the competitor must carry all magazines either on their belt or in pockets, unless the WSB states otherwise. 

 

If it’s something else, 4.5.1 prohibits the competitor from “interfering with the range surface, natural foliage, constructions, props, or other range equipment”, which is a bit of a stretch but could be used to argue against it. 

 

Basically, it comes down to the fact that while USPSA is freestyle after the start signal, as the shooter you don’t get to randomly put things on the stage unless the WSB allows it. 

[Hi-Power Jack]

Slide racker.     

[gnoyesiv]

I always ask if I can and see what the ro for the stage says, otherwise as stated above, slide racker or thumb rest are about the only options.

[NickBlasta]

9 hours ago, DKorn said:

What would the shooter be using to prop the gun up?

 

if it’s a magazine, 5.2.4 says that the competitor must carry all magazines either on their belt or in pockets, unless the WSB states otherwise. 

 

If it’s something else, 4.5.1 prohibits the competitor from “interfering with the range surface, natural foliage, constructions, props, or other range equipment”, which is a bit of a stretch but could be used to argue against it. 

 

Basically, it comes down to the fact that while USPSA is freestyle after the start signal, as the shooter you don’t get to randomly put things on the stage unless the WSB allows it. 

 

Correct, you can't like, bring something onto the stage to prop up the gun with or alter the stage to allow you to prop the gun. About all you can do is balance the gun upright rather than having it lay flat.

[DKorn]

1 hour ago, NickBlasta said:

 

Correct, you can't like, bring something onto the stage to prop up the gun with or alter the stage to allow you to prop the gun. About all you can do is balance the gun upright rather than having it lay flat.

 

Also, I didn’t mention it, but if the WSB does specify magazines and gun on table and doesn’t specify no propping of the gun, then you absolutely can prop the gun on a magazine. However, your time is probably better spent practicing regular loaded and unloaded table starts than figuring out how to game setting your gun up perfectly balanced on a magazine. 

[pjb45]

Some guns can be balanced and stand upright due to the mag well.  The trigger guard is centered over the X.  

[fishhunter3]

44 minutes ago, pjb45 said:

Some guns can be balanced and stand upright due to the mag well.  The trigger guard is centered over the X.  

yes but if the table gets bumped before you grab the gun. and it falls over. well at least you get to enjoy a blizzard.

[Sarge]

21 minutes ago, fishhunter3 said:

yes but if the table gets bumped before you grab the gun. and it falls over. well at least you get to enjoy a blizzard.

Or if it just falls on its own.

[GrumpyOne]

Hypothetical situation. Windy day at the range. Unloaded table start. Shooter is given the Make ready command, removes his gun from the holster, places it securely on the X (which happens to be in the middle of the lightweight card table), and steps back. A gust blows the table over, making the gun fall to the ground. 

 

I know this situation is not likely to happen...but what if it did? We all have shot in inclement weather...

[Matt1911]

16 minutes ago, GrumpyOne said:

Hypothetical situation. Windy day at the range. Unloaded table start. Shooter is given the Make ready command, removes his gun from the holster, places it securely on the X (which happens to be in the middle of the lightweight card table), and steps back. A gust blows the table over, making the gun fall to the ground. 

 

I know this situation is not likely to happen...but what if it did? We all have shot in inclement weather...

Range equipment malfunction. 

[Joe4d]

Dkorn nailed it,,  pretty clear.

[Sarge]

15 hours ago, Matt1911 said:

Range equipment malfunction. 

Agree. REF

[egd5]

Maybe I didn't understand. The way I took some previous posts here was that if a gun was propped up on its own on the table, but then just fell over (on its side, not off the table onto the ground), that would be a DQ?? Is that right? If so, why?

[Sarge]

6 hours ago, egd5 said:

Maybe I didn't understand. The way I took some previous posts here was that if a gun was propped up on its own on the table, but then just fell over (on its side, not off the table onto the ground), that would be a DQ?? Is that right? If so, why?

DROPPED GUN- A condition in which a competitor loses control of their firearm.
Loss of control does not require the firearm to land on the ground or other range surface or prop. It occurs anytime the firearm is no longer in control of either hand, even if it is trapped against part of the body or caught in midair.

 

 

[DKorn]

49 minutes ago, Sarge said:

DROPPED GUN- A condition in which a competitor loses control of their firearm.
Loss of control does not require the firearm to land on the ground or other range surface or prop. It occurs anytime the firearm is no longer in control of either hand, even if it is trapped against part of the body or caught in midair.

 

 

 

Can you lose control of something that’s sitting on a table a couple feet away from you with neither hand on it in the first place? Not sure what the real answer is, just trying to play devils advocate. 

[Joe4d]

If I was ro,, and gun was laid flat, to the point it wouldnt reasonably be expected to fall, then a giant dust devil came up and flipped table,,, I would call a REF..
If gun was barely balanced  some kinda way and fell over because a gnat farted I would call it dropped gun and issue DQ or pick up gun depending on timing.

[DKorn]

50 minutes ago, DKorn said:

 

Can you lose control of something that’s sitting on a table a couple feet away from you with neither hand on it in the first place? Not sure what the real answer is, just trying to play devils advocate. 

 

After reading the rule again, if the gun was unstable enough to easily fall over on its own, then the shooter should be DQ’d under 10.5.3, because if the gun fell over then the shooter did not safely place the gun on a stable object and thus cannot take advantage of the exception for putting the gun on an object.

[Barcode1337]

I'm not looking at any rules (dumb move, I know), but if the gun fall over prior to the start signal, and doesn't sweep anyone, wouldn't that just be the whole "not in correct starting position" and you just have to fix it and go again?

[egd5]

Well in my opinion, which doesn't matter, just because the gun falls on its side in the middle of a table that is not losing control of the gun. Now if you propped it up at the edge of the table where it could easily fall to the ground that's another story. I think Barcode has the right idea.

Honestly, some of the "safety" concerns in this sport really lack plain old common sense. That's my opinion anyway.

[Gary Stevens]

Once again a problem that doesn't happen with a proper WSB.

[egd5]

2 minutes ago, Gary Stevens said:

Once again a problem that doesn't happen with a proper WSB.

yes. one word "flat" added is all you need.

[broadside72]

I'm not looking at any rules (dumb move, I know), but if the gun fall over prior to the start signal, and doesn't sweep anyone, wouldn't that just be the whole "not in correct starting position" and you just have to fix it and go again?

Agreed. 10.5.3 requires the competitor to drop or cause to fall. Neither happens here.

[DKorn]

50 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

15 hours ago, Barcode1337 said:

I'm not looking at any rules (dumb move, I know), but if the gun fall over prior to the start signal, and doesn't sweep anyone, wouldn't that just be the whole "not in correct starting position" and you just have to fix it and go again?

Agreed. 10.5.3 requires the competitor to drop or cause to fall. Neither happens here.

 

The only argument I could see leading to a DQ from the gun falling over on the table (assuming nothing else happens like it falling off the table or pointing in an unsafe direction, etc.) is that when you put it on the table you weren’t “dropping” it because you “safely and intentionally” placed it on a “stable object” (10.5.3), but if it fell over then it wasn’t safe and/or stable. 

 

It’s a pretty big stretch and a clear violation of Rule #1 of  ROing (DBAD), but I could see someone making the argument. 

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, DKorn said:

 

The only argument I could see leading to a DQ from the gun falling over on the table (assuming nothing else happens like it falling off the table or pointing in an unsafe direction, etc.) is that when you put it on the table you weren’t “dropping” it because you “safely and intentionally” placed it on a “stable object” (10.5.3), but if it fell over then it wasn’t safe and/or stable. 

 

It’s a pretty big stretch and a clear violation of Rule #1 of  ROing (DBAD), but I could see someone making the argument. 

Can you guide m to rule #1 in the book?

Interpreting a rule different than another RO does not make one a dick.