My last match

[BARRYJ]

Guess I'm just venting, but my last match was miserable.  Checking Practiscore before the match, I noticed that a vast majority of the shooters I was squadded with were unclassified.  I like to see new shooters, but spread them out a little.  There were only two ro's.  Even after begging, a few didn't tape.  It took us longer to shoot, and the next squad was always waiting on us.  And it was hot, in the 90's.  Overall, not a fun day.

[Flatland Shooter]

Next time it happens (hopefully never) suggest to the RO to go old school.  When the RO calls out the shooting order, call out #1 the shooter, #2 shooter on deck, #3 shooter in the deep hole, #4, 5, 6 shooters to tape and set steel.  Pay attention to see that #4,#5 & #6 do their job or bump them to the bottom of the stack.  Usually only need to do it to them once and they catch on.  For the less motivated that do it a second time, when its down to their turn to shoot, nobody volunteers to tape or set steel.

 

Last time we did this was to a father/son dual that just felt they did enough by just showing up and paying their match fees.  First two stages no one complained about their lack of help but they did notice.   On the third stage we implemented Plan A.  They bitched and moaned and threatened to go to the MD/RO.   Next stage they did it again and once again got bumped to last and next to last on the shooting order.  Big difference this time is when the father walks up to the line none of the targets had been taped or steel reset.   Instead of shooting the stage, they went to the MD and complained.   It did not help their cause.

 

Did not see them again for a few months but when they returned, their attitude was much improved.

 

 

 

[anonymouscuban]

I'm a newer competitor. Started this past January. I taped and helped reset steel targets on every stage from my first match. Assumed this was a no brainer and something everyone does. You know, understand etiquette of the sport you're participating in. I was wrong.

In subsequent matches, we've had new shooters squad up with our squad. Not all of them are so eager to help out with the chores. The last match, we had 2 new guys that came together. I don't remember ever seeing them even make an attempt to tape. I mentioned it to one of them thinking maybe they just don't know. They still didn't. Then, on the last stage, as soon as they were done shooting they packed up and left even though there were several in the squad that hadn't shot the stage.

Go figure.

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[Hi-Power Jack]

1 hour ago, Flatland Shooter said:

 when the father walks up to the line none of the targets had been taped or steel reset.   

 

[DKorn]

1 hour ago, Flatland Shooter said:

Next time it happens (hopefully never) suggest to the RO to go old school.  When the RO calls out the shooting order, call out #1 the shooter, #2 shooter on deck, #3 shooter in the deep hole, #4, 5, 6 shooters to tape and set steel.  Pay attention to see that #4,#5 & #6 do their job or bump them to the bottom of the stack.  Usually only need to do it to them once and they catch on.  For the less motivated that do it a second time, when its down to their turn to shoot, nobody volunteers to tape or set steel.

 

Last time we did this was to a father/son dual that just felt they did enough by just showing up and paying their match fees.  First two stages no one complained about their lack of help but they did notice.   On the third stage we implemented Plan A.  They bitched and moaned and threatened to go to the MD/RO.   Next stage they did it again and once again got bumped to last and next to last on the shooting order.  Big difference this time is when the father walks up to the line none of the targets had been taped or steel reset.   Instead of shooting the stage, they went to the MD and complained.   It did not help their cause.

 

Did not see them again for a few months but when they returned, their attitude was much improved.

 

 

 

 

I’m gonna have to remember that one. 

 

I’ve never seen it get so bad that I’ve had to do more than sternly remind people to help, but I would be eyeing either a procedural (justified by 8.7.5) or 10.6.1. In either case if the squad can’t handle it and it gets to the point that you’re discussing penalties and/or having to call the RM/MD, things are already way out of hand. 

[davsco]

some just don't know the drill, and some need a little coercion.  at the safety brief, remind that you have the shooter, who tops off mags after his run.  the on deck shooter who is getting ready to make ready.  everyone else tapes and resets after each and every shooter.  if you have a big squad, the in the hole shooter can also relax and plan.  and make a rule that there is zero brass picking til after the match is over.

 

it's tough though.  couple old guys have energy to shoot the stages but not to reset (or do the nook).  then the two buddies that go off to their car and you don't see them for a couple of runs, so not even around to yell at them to help.  def the worst thing about the shooting events is how much more time they take when resetting help isn't there.

[rowdyb]

I have learned I can only care as much as the people I'm trying to help. Thankfully I'm not in a hurry on Saturday so if someone wants to lag I can play the waiting game just as well.

 

If me and a few others are doing all the work and reset I do it at a very comfortable pace, not killing myself. I don't have to do this too many times before people get it. The squad behind me if they catch us do a good job of venting to our squad as well.

 

And at the same time I definitely say "hey guys there is a rhythm to this. If you did not just shoot or on deck you have to be out here. You're screwing the group over if you don't so we can't let that happen."

Edited June 11, 2019 by rowdyb

[gerritm]

A very wise & excellent match director from North Texas told us at the shooter's meeting something I have repeated to many non-tapers/resetters.

 

"Shooting is optional, resetting & taping is mandatory."

 

If the shooter is not helping and is warned have them come & talk to me.

 

gerritm

[IHAVEGAS]

I never ever suffer in silence. 

If I'm running the squad I am quick to bitch when able bodied people are not helping. If I'm not running the squad, same thing. 

That said, I am also grateful that those of us who are physically able can do a little extra to help keep older or disabled shooters out on the range. 

 

[rowdyb]

Yep flip side is I'm always very vocally thankful to those who are helping.

[Nathanb]

I had a squad like this in my last match. Or at least claimed they couldn’t RO. Then I check them later and realize two of them were certified ROs.   They also pulled the shoot and scoot when they finished and didn’t help stay for teardown. 

 

They also had the audicity to ask why we didn’t run an 8-10 stage match when we had the bays for it though

[Gary Stevens]

14 hours ago, DKorn said:

 

I’m gonna have to remember that one. 

 

I’ve never seen it get so bad that I’ve had to do more than sternly remind people to help, but I would be eyeing either a procedural (justified by 8.7.5) or 10.6.1. In either case if the squad can’t handle it and it gets to the point that you’re discussing penalties and/or having to call the RM/MD, things are already way out of hand. 

 

This type of squad problems are best handled by the squad. The squads actions are a perfect example of this.

 

As to penalizing a shooter for not working, it is not supported by the rulebook.

 

 

 

Edited June 11, 2019 by Gary Stevens

[motosapiens]

9 minutes ago, Gary Stevens said:

As to penalizing a shooter for not working, it is not supported by the rulebook.

 

 

 

No justification for a procedural, but imho, requesting someone help with the reset is a reasonable instruction of a match official.

[mchapman]

23 minutes ago, Gary Stevens said:

 

This type of squad problems are best handled by the squad. The squads actions are a perfect example of this.

 

As to penalizing a shooter for not working, it is not supported by the rulebook.

 

 

 

What about unsportsman like conduct? I would think that would apply.

[Gary Stevens]

It certainly is reasonable to ask, but refusal is not a matter for the rulebook. Peer pressure or perhaps refusal of participation are the only answers.

 

One can twist vague, non-specific rules into meaning almost anything. Until the rulebook specifically addresses this issue, non-rulebook measures are all that is left. Feel free to disagree.

[IHAVEGAS]

9 minutes ago, mchapman said:

What about unsportsman like conduct? I would think that would apply.

 

I think you are right (10.6.1). 

[Gary Stevens]

Perhaps NROI can answer your concerns.

[CHA-LEE]

One job of the MD is to ensure that each squad is staffed with enough experienced workers. You need to bring this situation up to the MD and Stats people to keep that from happening again. This is one of the problems with online self squading. For the local club matches that I run we don't do online registration. We do registration the morning of the match and have printed self squading lists that the shooters write their names on. At the top of the squad list are three reserved slots for RO/CRO's. I mandate that only certified RO/CRO's write their names on those lines and also make it clear that if each squad doesn't have at least three RO/CRO's then the squad will be disbanded and moved to other squads that have at least 3 RO's. I also make it a point to NOT put a bunch of new shooters on the same squad. I will evenly distribute the new shooters on the squads so that they can see how experienced shooters get the job done and you don't overload a single squad with a bunch of newbies.

 

Beyond that, when you are dealing with lazy bums that don't want to work on your squad you need to crack the whip in a direct no bulls#!t manner. Beating around the bush or making passive aggressive comments about helping more doesn't work. You need to call these people out directly in front of the whole squad. This does two things, First it usually snaps the dead beats into shape. Second, it shows the rest of the squad that being a deadbeat will not be tolerated. Lastly, you need to lead by example buy busting your ass as much if not more than anyone else on your squad. If you are standing in the back bullshiting with your buddies and also complaining about others not working, your complaining comments are not going to be effective.

[Flatland Shooter]

5 hours ago, gerritm said:

 

"Shooting is optional, resetting & taping is mandatory."

 

If the shooter is not helping and is warned have them come & talk to me.

 

 

I'm getting flashbacks to an all steel match in 100 degree heat where you and i were busting our weary old backs when we realized we were the only ones downrange.  The good old days?

 

 

[Sarge]

This is what happens when growth is all a sport cares about. I personally support selective growth. I have been asked about USPSA Before by friends that I knew were not cut out for it for one reason or another. I tell them it’s expensive, there are too many rules, and most of the shooters are jerks. 

[Dutchman195]

31 minutes ago, Sarge said:

. I tell them it’s expensive, there are too many rules, and most of the shooters are jerks. 

 

Expensive. Understatement of the year. 

But Generally after about one stage of not pasting I'll just go say something to someone. As I would want someone to say something to me if they feel I am slacking. No reason to have animosity towards people when we literally get nothing out of this. 

 

If they are my new shooters I'm bringing I'll give them a talk on the way to the range as to what is expected IE, pasting dos and donts.

[elguapo]

1 hour ago, CHA-LEE said:

One job of the MD is to ensure that each squad is staffed with enough experienced workers. This is one of the problems with online self squading.

 

The problem is fixed at the squad level as you and others pointed out.

 

If you need to reserve spots for ROs, there are ways to do so without inconveniencing those who like to squad with others ahead of time.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 11, 2019 by elguapo

[rowdyb]

wow, i can't imagine a local match where each squad has 3 actual certified RO's on it. most my locals have 6 squads of 10-14 shooters. it truly is hard for me to imagine a local of 70 competitors where 20 of them are certified RO's..... i'm used to single digits on that one.

 

one thing i see is long standing groups of people always shooting together. that can lock up half your squads to be totally full of just buddies. this crams all the new people into the few squads remaining.

 

someone and something has to compromise. the needs of the day have to outweigh the needs of the one. or two.

 

this may sound bad, but i like tuning up people who aren't helping. for me personally, the trick is to not make it sound like it is what i want, but rather what is a universal good. not just 'cause i say so. and then when they do respond positively I really also enjoy praising the people who figured it out and went from not helping to helping.

 

but if you never get it...... i leave no doubt how I feel about what you did.

Edited June 11, 2019 by rowdyb

[gerritm]

59 minutes ago, Flatland Shooter said:

 

I'm getting flashbacks to an all steel match in 100 degree heat where you and i were busting our weary old backs when we realized we were the only ones downrange.  The good old days?

 

 

More than once it has just been us resetting. I am known to be vocal about calling out the dead beats, sometimes gets me dirty looks, but seems to be a pattern with certain shooters. Most of our local RO's are also good about keeping the shooters discussing their Glock triggers resetting. Non are too bashful to call them out.

 

On the other hand I have had the privilege to shoot with some super squad shooters who are my age and they were the hardest working of anyone. Never stopped during the whole match, set an example for all. 

 

But I will admit that the best match I ever shot, which happened to be 3-gun, had the A&M Cadets resetting on each stage for tips to help fund their shooting. Had no problem dropping a nice tip on each stage along with all the squad mates. 

 

gerritm

[Mcfoto]

The two issues I see here are:

 

1. Setting expectations. At the first match, we tell new shooters that until they are in the hole, their job is to go down range and reset.

2. Trust in training new people to help RO. We've trained willing folks to run the pad their first match. It's not rocket science and its not the end of the world if they screw up.

 

If its a Level I club match, train a shooter with a bit of experience to RO. There's plenty of D and C shooters with a year of experience who could handle the brick.