Can we find a way to save USPSA Revo?

[MikeyScuba]

Ps I still drive a 6 speed manual 

 

correlation?

[Alaskan454]

26 minutes ago, MikeyScuba said:

Ps I still drive a 6 speed manual 

 

correlation?

Possibly,  I drive a manual and primarily shoot revolvers. 

Edited February 26, 2019 by Alaskan454

[NoSteel]

I ran a poll a couple of years ago on  Optic Revolver as I was running one in our local Steel Challenge matches..  My thought was since I was already set up with an optic it would be perfect to compete in carry optics.  Then,  they went and changed carry optics to allow the higher cap mag as well as other changes and that plans possibility went out the window..  Here is the poll,  not too many were onboard with the idea but we did beat out the No's!!

https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/249407-uspsa-revolver-optics-division/

Edited February 26, 2019 by NoSteel

[Kurusty]

Don't forget that this was the first year that Western States allowed, and differentiated divisions, and it is a level 1 match. This year they decided to call it an outlaw match. I'm all for it, we get an ICORE match with USPSA scoring and targets! My ICORE friends still can't figure out the scoring though..

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

[pete627]

IMHO .. USPSA is the place to shoot an 8 shot revolver (or Steel Challenge ... or a plain old steel match).

 

The (USPSA) matches may have high capacity carbines and open guns running around but there is still Production, Single Stack, Limited 10 etc etc ... and the scenarios are fun.

Nooooo biggie ... the low capacity folks are reloading between shooting positions ... the high caps folks get to run faster. Big deal ... that's why there are different divisions.  

It would be cool to be able to run an optic on a revolver w/o having to shoot in open. Heck .. if they can have Welfare Open (Carry Optics) then why not Revolver Optics ?? It would allow the open ICORE people to be able to participate w/ the same gun ...

 

Also ... IMHO ... I am disappointed that many ICORE matches appear to continue to (snub) step on the 8 shot ... making 6 shot strings and triple taps the mainstay ... leaving in most cases the only advantage to having an 8 shot being a couple of extra bullets (in case of an ammo problem). The results clearly separate 8 shots from the 6 shots and the open guns as well as the moon clip and speed loader guys ...

When you get home and unload your moon clips ... how many do you have that all the rounds have been fired??

Now that we have Limited 6 ... "Limited" is the 8 shot irons sighted revolvers. Are we (ICORE) pushing them away?? 

 

[AzShooter]

One thing for sure, you will get practice reloading on the clock.   My club president would always apologies to me when  they had non-revolver friendly stages but I told him I needed practice with my reloads.  After a while I had the fastest reloads in the club.  I even managed to impress some California shooters at the first IRC.

[pskys2]

Minor with a dot would be relative inexpensive, major 8 shot would cost no more than the 8 shot but life expectancy of the platform could become an issue, 8 shot major Open would require a new barrel with a usable comp and the same longevity issues.   Even at that the cost wouldn't be huge.

 

But look at ICORE, it is popular in certain areas, but getting interest in it, or keeping it, where it is not supported already has been problematic.

I just don't see any wide spread increase and only spotty local increases.

 

I'd say the only way to increase it is to make it the new buzz, like PCC.

How to do it?  I just don;t see a way as the trend is to easier and faster.  SS is slipping and PCC will eat into Opens numbers.  

 

I still shoot Revolver at times but not in anything above level 1.  I even shot with magnum SD ammo once, just to do it, so it just wouldn't matter to me I just don't see it helping.

So since it's stagnated now maybe just say Revolver Division, no restrictions at all.  Would be fun, for a while.

[RJH]

https://www.rossiusa.com/product-details.cfm?id=29758&category=15&toggle=&breadcrumbseries=

 

Here is the answer

[1911Prof]

Revolver minor with a dot sounds good to me (my eyesight is not helpful to shooting iron sights) but I don't know if it would convince new/more shooters to move to a wheel gun.  I started shooting revolver because it requires a new set of skills and strategies that are challenging.  I think if we are honest most new shooters are looking for something that gets them up to speed quickly (read easier) hence PCC and CO

[pete627]

3 minutes ago, 1911Prof said:

Revolver minor with a dot sounds good to me (my eyesight is not helpful to shooting iron sights) but I don't know if it would convince new/more shooters to move to a wheel gun.  I started shooting revolver because it requires a new set of skills and strategies that are challenging.  I think if we are honest most new shooters are looking for something that gets them up to speed quickly (read easier) hence PCC and CO

Yep ... definitely not a draw for something new to do ... but ...

It would allow an existing group of optic equipped revolvers (ICORE open shooters) to shoot their guns at USPSA w/o having to change a thing (just show up).

 

Note: except (only mounting difference I could find) ... in USPSA the heel of the gun can't be below the top of the belt ... in ICORE it only has to stay above the bottom of the belt!! (like who would call that?? dumb rule!! 1 1/2 inch height difference). 

[Carmoney]

12 hours ago, RJH said:

I think any more equipment changes will continue to whittle away at the already tiny contingent of revolver shooters.  You may get a little more participation at a couple of majors but at smaller events/locals, upping the cost to get a competitive revolver will be a death nail in an already dying division.  When they went to 8 minor it was supposed to up the numbers of competitors, but i think it had the opposite effect.  By really obsoleting 6 rounders you took the casual ," i might like to try this,"  and the "i still got my old 625" shooters out of the game.  Well that, and going to 8 round neutral, which i think was a bad idea whether shooting a revolver or not, but nobody asked me haha.

 

Actually, if you were active on the BE Revolver Forum back at the time the 8-shot option was being discussed, then you were asked!  We conducted a poll here which drew a great deal of interest and comment, and was watched closely by USPSA leadership.  The poll participants favored allowing the 8-shooters by an approximate 2-to-1 margin.  

[Carmoney]

48 minutes ago, pskys2 said:

Minor with a dot would be relative inexpensive, major 8 shot would cost no more than the 8 shot but life expectancy of the platform could become an issue, 8 shot major Open would require a new barrel with a usable comp and the same longevity issues.   Even at that the cost wouldn't be huge.

 

N-frames can take loads and loads of major power factor shooting.  My old 27 that I bought very used from Brian Enos back at Second Chance has had untold tens of thousands of my pin loads (240 p.f.) through it, and still works just fine.  Miculek's main pin guns went well over 100K pin loads.  

 

There may be other problems in allowing 8-shot major wheels, but longevity should not be an issue, at least with Smiths and Rugers.

[Carmoney]

13 hours ago, swordfish said:

 

It is entirely possible that I am attempting to take vital signs on a corpse.  It's just hard to walk away on something you still love.

[Carmoney]

11 hours ago, swordfish said:

I find people whose minds are easily swayed. Then I kidnap them and hypnotize them. If I pull enough strings I can get 6 or 7 guys at a local. No one wants to shoot area matches because it's too far or too expensive. But for a local it can be done. I usually roll around with 2 other revo dudes that I drag to locals a few hours away. You can't find them, you have to make them.

 

Ten or fifteen years ago we had enough revo participation at bigger matches to make it fun, but a lot of that interest was driven by a few guys who went out of their way to really promote and push it.  I had several close friends that would fly anywhere in the country to shoot revos against each other, based on good-natured challenges, trash talk, and taunting!  It was an absolute blast.  

 

Much tougher to organize that sort of thing these days.  (Sidebar:  Steve Horsman is putting great effort into keeping it alive through his annual WSRC match at Rio Salado and I hope it sticks, even if it becomes a specialty outlaw event.)  A couple years ago, I posted several BE Forum threads with titles like "Who's Shooting Revo at Area X?" and got very little response, and I finally gave up the effort.

[Carmoney]

7 hours ago, radny97 said:

 

 

This is the crux of the issue in my opinion. ICORE is doing just fine. In part because it’s competitive and everyone is shooting a similar platform. Which raises the level of the competition for all participants. People shoot competitively because they want to compete. [stating the obvious, but that’s really the issue].
If there’s no real revolver group to compete against, why show up other than to get in some practice. Which you can do yourself.

 

 

 

 

I'm not at all sure that ICORE is doing just fine on the national level.  There are still pockets of interest, but the overall numbers continue to dwindle.  I tried to get ICORE going in my area, even hosted several regional events at our local club, but it never really took off.  Many areas of the country have no ICORE presence at all.  

 

The great potential of USPSA Revo is that it is available pretty much anywhere.  Despite that, the interest just isn't there anymore.  

[Carmoney]

10 hours ago, alecmc said:

I really enjoy the 'how to save revo' conversations, but I think with this particular scenario it just means now that everybody will be shooting open major 8 revolver, and all the IRON sighted guns will go the way of the 625. And we will probably have less participation due to people not wanting to upgrade and play the equipment race. 

 

Some of us tried to get Open revolver into carry optics, but that didn't work out. 

 

 

 

Open Revo in Carry Optics would have been interesting when CO was limited to 10 rounds--but now with unlimited mag capacity, there is no point.  

 

The other problem is that it would have splintered the wheels into two divisions, dividing the chance for competitive participation numbers down even further.  

[PatJones]

Carmony, I really liked the format your had when you ran your ICORE sectional. I enjoyed shooting the match again the following day using USPSA rules, it made it feel more like an event. I wish more of the ICORE regionals would do something like this as it's hard to convince myself to fly across the country for a single day of shooting.

[mchapman]

1 hour ago, PatJones said:

Carmony, I really liked the format your had when you ran your ICORE sectional. I enjoyed shooting the match again the following day using USPSA rules, it made it feel more like an event. I wish more of the ICORE regionals would do something like this as it's hard to convince myself to fly across the country for a single day of shooting.

I haven't been able to convince you to come and shoot for 4 larger two day matches in the last couple of years.

[jcc7x7]

8 hours ago, PatJones said:

Carmony, I really liked the format your had when you ran your ICORE sectional. I enjoyed shooting the match again the following day using USPSA rules, it made it feel more like an event. I wish more of the ICORE regionals would do something like this as it's hard to convince myself to fly across the country for a single day of shooting.

At GCL where the icore ne regional was held last year. We're have a two day uspsa match, then the 3rd day will be an icore match. The stages will be charged somewhat for the icore match.

Practiscore firecracker match and then look for gcl icore match same weekend.

[MikeyScuba]

10 minutes ago, jcc7x7 said:

At GCL where the icore ne regional was held last year. We're have a two day uspsa match, then the 3rd day will be an icore match. The stages will be charged somewhat for the icore match.

Practiscore firecracker match and then look for gcl icore match same weekend.

Can’t wait.

 

keep in mind a 2 day shooting event involving flying will also involve shipping ammo cross country.  Thankfully I am now able to use my corporate cdn UPS account to ship from-to us addresses.  But for retail rates, ugh.  I did have to pay retail for the irc and tpc course last year, $700 for 7000 rounds. 

[Jay1957]

Been reading this topic with great interest, and I feel we are missing a critical issue, that if not addressed will ultimately see revolver die. The growth you see in IDPA and USPSA can be attributed to production rules that allow a new person to enter. USPSA is not revolver friendly to the new shooter. I sometimes shoot IDPA with a S&W 64 that has mean tuned for IDPA. Shooting that gun on a 28 round non revolver friendly stage would suck. The RO would probably wonder if I would ever finish. Point is that to enjoy revolver you need to shoot an 8 shot pistol, or that low entry cost plastic gun will win every new shooter. The final conclusion is that if we non’t make it easy and cost efficient for new shooters you won’t solve the problem.

[RJH]

10 hours ago, Carmoney said:

 

Actually, if you were active on the BE Revolver Forum back at the time the 8-shot option was being discussed, then you were asked!  We conducted a poll here which drew a great deal of interest and comment, and was watched closely by USPSA leadership.  The poll participants favored allowing the 8-shooters by an approximate 2-to-1 margin.  

 

I actually thought i had posted in that thread but couldn't find it.  I never really cared for the idea because it was never going to pull new shooters to revolver in my opinion.  I do remember posting some where that a speedloader subset (or something like that, it has been a while) would have been a better way to pull in new shooters cause a bunch of people have a 6 shot 38/357 laying around so they might actually give it a try.  Virtually no one at the time had a spare 8 shooter.  The big gripe to that idea was splitting an already small division, but I did and still do feel that splitting it won't kill it and may actually bring in some new shooters.  But pretty much 0% of shooters are going to go buy $1500+ in equipment to try out a division to shoot against themselves.  

[1911Prof]

I understand that splitting up revolver into even smaller subdivisions will make participation at larger matches more problematic, but it is already a problem.  If there are really sufficient ICORE shooters with optics that would/could get involved then perhaps it would help, and it doesn't sound like it will really hurt.  The other option could be to keep one division that allows optics.  This would kill off any iron sight competitors, but lets fact it, data indicates that nobody new is picking up their revolver and thinking "Gee I think i will try speedloading this puppy at today's match"

[pskys2]

15 hours ago, Carmoney said:

 

N-frames can take loads and loads of major power factor shooting.  My old 27 that I bought very used from Brian Enos back at Second Chance has had untold tens of thousands of my pin loads (240 p.f.) through it, and still works just fine.  Miculek's main pin guns went well over 100K pin loads.  

 

There may be other problems in allowing 8-shot major wheels, but longevity should not be an issue, at least with Smiths and Rugers.

I didn't mean to imply they couldn't handle it, but shooting major PF will loosen things up way quicker than our current set ups.  Due to the pressures you could start seeing timing issues quicker than with the 625's even. 

Maybe not as I don't know many who do it. 

I guess you would know from the Bowling Pin Days though.

[Alaskan454]

It's a complicated problem with many variables.

 

In my personal experience I have seen ICORE shooters who simply prefer to shoot a semi auto at USPSA matches.  They will shoot ICORE, IDPA, or Steel Challenge with a revo, but do not view USPSA as their "revo match".  One example is hard core Cowboy shooters who love their single action revolvers (and own several pairs of them), but still shoot a Glock or 1911 when they come out to other matches.  You really can't control personal preference. 

 

One way to approach that angle is provide them with your gear and let them try it during a practice session or after the regular match is over.  At least one shooter I met completely converted to revolvers after trying a 627 worked over by BossHoss.  He was primarily a Limited shooter before that point.  I actually remember one Open shooter who was surprisingly good with my 929 from the first moonclip fired.  One day I hope he'll give it a try.

 

Another factor is balancing our existing shooters versus potentially new shooters.  If you make the division more expensive to try, you are hedging more bets on increasing new participation and hoping existing shooters already own an optic for their 627/929.  Many shooters have asked me what it costs to get set-up with an iron sight 929 and full rig.  They will then usually say I'm better off spending that money on "insert other division here".  Usually that division is PCC, Limited, or Production. 

 

Now if we add optics to the equation and fix everything else you add another $200+ for every person getting started.  Some will spend up to $500 for better optics.  Now, those of us that have been doing this for a few years will say that $200 is a single LII/LIII match fee in some cases.  Those who only shoot club level will view that as an entire year's budget for match fees plus many boxes of 9mm ammo.  Further illustrating the differences in perspective, I just had to Google what 9mm ammo costs because I haven't bought it in so long.  It was surprisingly cheap.  I saw one place selling Federal bulk for $0.14 per round.  

 

For me personally, I finally got a second 929 and have dedicated revolvers with irons and optics.  So I wouldn't be super upset if we forced optics into the equation.  I would however be kind of annoyed if they coupled that with Major PF.  I don't think my 929 is going to safely make Major without a good bit of R&D.  I'd likely end up needing to buy another dedicated USPSA revolver in 357 along with new moonclips, loading tool, and brass.  Given the prevalence of 929s right now, many would be in a similar position.  The other option is to have a custom cylinder made in 38 super and fit it to my 929.  That way I could use the same bullets and moonclips I'm currently using and save a good bit of time and money.  To be honest, I would keep it 6/Major and 8/Minor unless there is overwhelming evidence that people want to move towards Major PF.  8 Major has no appeal to me personally.

 

One idea which I've heard before is to allow dots and everyone still shoots minor.  The catch would be that iron sight guns get scored as major.  With our game I don't actually know if that would entice anyone to give Revo a try, but it's an interesting idea.  

 

Lastly, no matter what ideas and suggestions get thrown around, they should be tested before changing Revolver Division rules.  One option here would be to have a standalone Revolver Nationals, or large LII/LIII match where you have Open Revolver offered as a category to test the proposed rule changes.  This would be the only solution I see to find out if other shooters would come out to play.  You might be surprised how few, or also how many people opt for the Open Revolver division.