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Carmoney

Can we find a way to save USPSA Revo?

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I spent the weekend shooting the Western States Revolver and SS Championships out at the great Rio Salado club in Mesa, AZ.  I've never been to a bad match at that facility, and this year's championships were no exception.  

 

Spending the weekend with a bunch of dedicated lo-cap shooters (Revo and SS) led to some interesting conversations about the future of Revolver Division.

 

I'm curious to hear what you guys think of this concept (and try to keep an open mind):  Allow any DA revolver to compete in USPSA Revolver Division, iron sights and optics allowed, major scoring allowed regardless of capacity with power factor determined at the chrono.  Basically, we're talking open revo, with virtually no equipment limits--in the current Revolver Division we have now.   

 

Would that bring in enough new wheels to create reasonable participation levels at USPSA matches, including level two and three matches?  Would this alienate the very few remaining diehards, who would once again be upset that they might have to upgrade equipment to perceive themselves as competitive?  

 

Is this worth a try?  

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Carmoney

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I've met a lot of shooters that would love to compete in USPSA matches with the Open Revolvers.  I'm glad Rio Salado had the ambition to do it at the WS Match.  I think you would gain shooters.  There will be an equipment race but those with iron sights would welcome the open shooters I think.

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I want to be positive about this.  I like the idea because my eyes and iron sights don't get along so well.  But...I think the people that will shoot revos in USPSA are already doing it.  Those are the rules we used to shoot with back in the day before USPSA decided revos weren't worth supporting.  So it would be nice, but I can't see it increasing the numbers.

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Why not

It's pretty quiet in Revo division now.

Might pick up some open icore shooters.

A few years ago a whole squad of open revolvers shot area 7.

Fun to watch, I wish I would have known, I would have shot with them.

 

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It’s in my plane te eventually get An 8 shot gun for USPSA. Shot a 6 shot S&W in IDPA. Currently though my time and money is in Limiter.

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I think any more equipment changes will continue to whittle away at the already tiny contingent of revolver shooters.  You may get a little more participation at a couple of majors but at smaller events/locals, upping the cost to get a competitive revolver will be a death nail in an already dying division.  When they went to 8 minor it was supposed to up the numbers of competitors, but i think it had the opposite effect.  By really obsoleting 6 rounders you took the casual ," i might like to try this,"  and the "i still got my old 625" shooters out of the game.  Well that, and going to 8 round neutral, which i think was a bad idea whether shooting a revolver or not, but nobody asked me haha.

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I shot revolver all last summer. I figured someone had to be the first guy registered as revo.

We have a lot of guy's that used to shoot revo in Colorado. I thought for sure someone would come out and play at the local matches once again if there was at least one reliable revolver shooter. Nope, everyone is busy shooting PCC or something.

I was the only revolver shooter at area 3 after the other guy changed divisions. We really are our own worst enemies. Many of us revo shooters have gun ADD.

I'm currently shooting single stack because there's someone to shoot against. Looking at numbers, that division isn't too many years away from having the same problem.

I don't have much interest in optics. I'd load the 627 up to major in a heartbeat, but I think a lot of people would hesitate to do that with their 629s. The cost and availability of 8 shoot revolvers is a real barrier to a division that people might only want to play around with. The cost of the guns is not gonna change.

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I've thought about this for a bit after area 3 last year.

 

No, there's not a lot of us at local matches. Probably never was, likely never will be. But there should be enough of us to have some competition at the area matches outside of Nationals. What's stopping this? Is it equipment rules? Is it the fear of not getting recognized due to insufficient shooters? For me it's always been the latter one.

 

I was surprised, and a little embarrassed, when I did receive recognition at area 3 last year. I understand not being awarded a Nationals slot with insufficient numbers, but a $20 plaque was a nice gesture.

 

 

 

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Hate to be negative here.  I don't think it will bring in any new shooters.  USPSA is now a high capacity game.  Look at the growth in PCC and Carry Optics.  I enjoy putting a red dot on my 627 and shooting open from time to time.  I don't see me investing any more  money so that I can now shoot major.  I think revolver has gone the way of the manual transmission.  There will always be some guys out there that like them, but I don't see a path for any growth.

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I still drive a 5 speed. I don't think I'll be able to find a truck with one in it next time around.

Living in Colorado, with Nationals in Florida, I'm gonna shoot revo for 4 to 6 weeks leading up to our ICORE regional and then go back to the bottom feeder.

The problem isn't new shooters, it's us. We all find excuses to shoot a different gun, but want to make it "easier" for new guys to be the only revo shooter at the match. That's not gonna happen. What gets 10 of us out to an area match?

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15 minutes ago, BadShot said:

  USPSA is now a high capacity game.  Look at the growth in PCC and Carry Optics.  ...  I think revolver has gone the way of the manual transmission.  There will always be some guys out there that like them, but I don't see a path for any growth.

 

I totally agree with you but I'm bucking the trend. Fortunately for me, we have a small but dedicated group of wheel gunners here that can field an ICORE match once a month. More than that and they have to play with the bottom feeder ninjas. On my goals this year to join them. Hey, I learned to drive a stick by just getting out there and doing it. Of course, sometimes in traffic you just want to stick it in drive and go...

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40 minutes ago, PatJones said:

I've thought about this for a bit after area 3 last year.

 

No, there's not a lot of us at local matches. Probably never was, likely never will be. But there should be enough of us to have some competition at the area matches outside of Nationals. What's stopping this? Is it equipment rules? Is it the fear of not getting recognized due to insufficient shooters? For me it's always been the latter one.

 

I was surprised, and a little embarrassed, when I did receive recognition at area 3 last year. I understand not being awarded a Nationals slot with insufficient numbers, but a $20 plaque was a nice gesture.

 

 

 

I find people whose minds are easily swayed. Then I kidnap them and hypnotize them. If I pull enough strings I can get 6 or 7 guys at a local. No one wants to shoot area matches because it's too far or too expensive. But for a local it can be done. I usually roll around with 2 other revo dudes that I drag to locals a few hours away. You can't find them, you have to make them.

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11 minutes ago, PatJones said:

I still drive a 5 speed. I don't think I'll be able to find a truck with one in it next time around.

I got hit by a drunk last summer and when I went to find a new car I got laughed at when I asked about a standard transmission. Now I'm rocking an automatic and it's very pedestrian and lame.

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   I had to park my revolvers.  Between my job, hand injuries and the tendonitis in my trigger and middle finger I simply can't operate a revolver trigger w/o suffering inflammation and a worsening of the audible "click" every time I bend my right index finger.  The last match I shot was a month ago, our local clubs inaugural  Steel Challenge match.  It was  chilly and damp and by the last stage I could hardly grasp the 627.   It honestly made me sad.

  That being said, allowing 8 shot major, comps and all the bells and whistles  would be fun for folks that shoot revos', but wiould have no net affect on participation.  USPSA is a high capacity sport that will only get faster and more technology driven.  I don't think any rule change will increase the participation.   Its to hard, requires to much effort and on your greatest day you'll still be perpetually out gunned by everyone around you.  Revo will fade out, then Single Stack.   Maybe USPSA will replace it with something which could increase overall participation like Limited minor, giving 3 gunners a place to practice w/o being penalized for shooting 9mm.

I'd still rather work to hard and get my butt kicked with a revo than shoot the G34 I picked up. 

But I always choose the hardest path.

Jason

 

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I really enjoy the 'how to save revo' conversations, but I think with this particular scenario it just means now that everybody will be shooting open major 8 revolver, and all the IRON sighted guns will go the way of the 625. And we will probably have less participation due to people not wanting to upgrade and play the equipment race. 

 

Some of us tried to get Open revolver into carry optics, but that didn't work out. 

 

 

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I spoke with Mike about adding optic revolvers to co when it was brand new. But alas no joy in mudville

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I'm getting Deja ve about this.

 

The last time they "saved" revolver division they chased away several revolver shooters in my area. A year or so after the rule change it picked up some but not sure if the rule change had anything to do with it or the into of the 929 spiked the interest.

Last time one of the main reasons I heard for 8 minor being allowed in Revolver was "it is a place for the ICORE shooters to bring out their guns and shoot" Where are they at?. Please don't make a rule change based on getting the ICORE shooters to cross over because that hasn't panned out so far.

 

My big complaint last time was what about the classifiers and while this wouldn't be as bad as last time there still should be a adjustment to them as optics will make some of them easier. But that won't happen.

 

I'm actually fairly neutral on the optic thing as it will be a advantage  but available to everyone. Just adds $300-500 to the entry cost of the division.

 

8 shot Major I don't know if a 929 can make major has anyone tried to see? I don't think it will without some problems. Rifle primers +heavier trigger pulls, Sticky extraction, etc.

75% of the guns that have come thru the shop in the last 3-4 years are 929's so you may be obsoleting a majority of the revolvers out there. Even a 627 will have to go to 38/357 brass as I don't thing Short or long colt will work.(Long colt might but I doubt anyone has tried).

I shot some 38 super major a few years ago and while it worked would have to play with powder and bullet combo to get better extraction.

 

I don't think any of this will increase the number of shooters and I still enjoy the challenge of the game the way it is now.

While I would love to see revolver grow by leaps and bounds I realize that isn't going to happen but I have never seen any reason to eliminate it. Doesn't hurt or cost anything keeping it around. IMO

 

Something I'm curious about is since PCC has opened up a lot of possibilities with PCC is only shooting against other PCC's that I hear all the time. Revolver is only shooting against other Revolvers so would this be possible/fair/fun? All revolvers have to make minor power factor at chrono. Optics are scored as minor and iron sights scored as major(even though shooting minor PF). Is the optic worth the points? It would still be easy to tell who shot optic vs Iron by their PF in the results.

If optics are just thrown in to revolver the way it is now it will be a have to have to be competitive. 

 

Optic revolver should have been put in CO IMO

 

  

 

Edited by Bosshoss

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I think it would be great to get a bunch of revo shooters wound up about shooting USPSA, as well as other kinds of matches. I don't know the answer for that. In the mean while, every kind of match is making a PCC division. I'm thinking about just building a 627 PCC gun for all those.🙂

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So, I don’t shoot any formal matches. I shoot strictly at a local, informal level with handguns. My pistol of choice is a 625JM. 

 

Last match, Sunday night, I was approached by a buddy. His question to me: Why do you shoot a revolver? Semis are so much easier and faster. 

 

I think, in my humble opinion, that that is the crux of the issue. Changing scoring and rules will do very little(at least in my neck of the woods)to bring any new wheel gunners in to the sport shooting world. They simply are not competitive with the bottom-feeding crowd. A moderately quick semi shooter will put gun a decent wheel gunner every time. Yes, there are exceptions, but at the level I’m speaking of, they don’t exist. It’s fun to be competitive. It’s fun to post fast times. And it’s just easier to do both with a semi auto. 

Make the “divisions” as easy and relaxed as possible. Keep revolvers separate. Y’all can sweat the details as I’m not knowledgeable enough to offer an opinion on them. But probably separate divisions for 6, 7, and 8 shot with “stock” and “open” and call it good. Make it easy to understand and have fun. That’s why most of us are here, right?  

 

Horribly un-informed post I know. Hopefully the spirit comes through. 

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I agree on putting optic revo in carry optics, better than open that’s for sure.  My wife switch’s to her shadow 2 when shooting IPSC.  I sometimes shoot my 929 but winning by being

a) the only revo shooter

b)half the age of the other revo guy

c) they put my wife in open

is boring.... zzzz

 

so I shoot standard major 80% of the time 

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Changing scoring and rules will do very little(at least in my neck of the woods)to bring any new wheel gunners in to the sport shooting world. They simply are not competitive with the bottom-feeding crowd. A moderately quick semi shooter will put gun a decent wheel gunner every time. Yes, there are exceptions, but at the level I’m speaking of, they don’t exist. It’s fun to be competitive. It’s fun to post fast times. And it’s just easier to do both with a semi auto. 
Make the “divisions” as easy and relaxed as possible. Keep revolvers separate.



This is the crux of the issue in my opinion. ICORE is doing just fine. In part because it’s competitive and everyone is shooting a similar platform. Which raises the level of the competition for all participants. People shoot competitively because they want to compete. [stating the obvious, but that’s really the issue].
If there’s no real revolver group to compete against, why show up other than to get in some practice. Which you can do yourself.


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1 hour ago, radny97 said:


If there’s no real revolver group to compete against, why show up other than to get in some practice. Which you can do yourself.

 

 

 

 

I always figured revo shooters show up to matches for the same reason that kids threaten suicide, or decide to change their gender. Cry for attention, or a desperate plea for help.... 🤣

 

 

Not sure if this topic is related to wearing kilts to matches....

:cheers:

Edited by motosapiens

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I used to use the "not competitive" excuse until I purchased the practiscore AP. Now I just combine my scores with single stack and production. I chose not to shoot Revo in level 2&3 matches because there's never enough people in this division, and for the higher costs of these matches, if rather have a small chance of winning something in my class. If 2 more Revo shooters signed up for Northern Arizona, if change to Revo in a heart beat. Last year I believe that we had 5 Revo shooters, but I only had 1 627 at the time and I had converted it to open for ICORE.
Must USPSA shooters love to watch is shoot Revo, but just like everyone has already stated, they don't think that they would be competitive. At least we're not bringing a rifle to a pistol match

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