Can we find a way to save USPSA Revo?

[Carmoney]

On 3/12/2019 at 7:09 AM, MikeyScuba said:

I've managed to get a single squad of 8 with 5 wheelguns for a L2 in June, with 5 being on the workers squad so it's 10 total so far. It would be 6 but not with open being the only option for my wife's optic'd 929.  yea yea dead horse I know.....

 

Which match?  

[MikeyScuba]

Kingston/Frontenac  IPSC L2.   Our matches are run through IPSC Ontario’s website and sign up calendar - so you can’t see them. Funny thing is the 2 classic shooters bailed yesterday from our R/Min stacked squad lol.

Edited March 14, 2019 by MikeyScuba

[Carmoney]

Just to prove I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is--if we can get some wheels at Area 3 this year, Sam and I will run our revolvers too.  Who's game?

[J_Allen]

I’m already in for area 3 - unfortunately I’m a nobody.

[PatJones]

Just to prove I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is--if we can get some wheels at Area 3 this year, Sam and I will run our revolvers too.  Who's game?

Oh crap. I'm not doing area 3 this year.

[fishhunter3]

On 3/18/2019 at 10:39 PM, Carmoney said:

Just to prove I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is--if we can get some wheels at Area 3 this year, Sam and I will run our revolvers too.  Who's game?

I would love to but if did revo that would bring the total to 4 if mark w. goes.Just started getting old being the only revolver guy at a match or shooting a division that match directors won't recognize,(even though we pay the same entry ) I think my revolver work will stay with the local IDPA, icore MW regional  and   if I can get in the low cap national. but I would be willing to do area 3 if we could fill a squad. 

[MattInTheHat]

Some thoughts after I just shot my first match (steel challenge) in five years:

 

1. The 8 shot experiment seems to have failed. Too much good data in this thread to rehash but it seems obvious.

2. Apparently people compare themselves to other equipment divisions? This one mystifies me, why would you do that? Do people who head out to the local dragstrip bemoan their 200hp classic car vs. the local funny car? Why?

3. Revolver is NOT slow. Revolver is the fastest division in USPSA, if you're talking about action. That action isn't necessarily shooting, and I think people keep trying to chase that feeling in the hopes that it will draw in other division shooters. It won't. It's fast because it's complicated.  It isn't hard, just complicated. When shooting a stage that isn't dumbed down for revolvers (looking at you, Revo Nationals) you never have a fraction of a second where you aren't reloading, shooting, or moving, usually at least 2 of the 3.

4. Money and complexity IS a problem. I got into revo because I'm a juggler, not a bobsled. I like chaos, I like complexity, I like a bunch of stuff going crazy all at the same time.  Again, you're not going to figure out how to make a wheelgun feel like a semi and somehow rope people in. If they want easy and bang-bang, then they are going to get it in the other seventy divisions.

5. Six shots cannot compete with 8 shots, just stop that argument. There is no way to make it true, and I suspect the same of optics. I shot a stage at the 2014 Nationals as good as I can shoot a stage, which to be non-humble was pretty damned good.  It was a "Well, I won that stage" event. Came in seventh on that stage. Further dilution of the perception of winning can't help.

6.  One of the silly arguments I heard when 8 was proposed was that people didn't want to deal with the recoil.  Now we're discussing adding major back in, which is it?

7. Participation. The numbers don't lie.  We had a solid cadre of revolver shooters that had a hell of a time hanging out, competing, yapping over drinks, etc. That seems to be gone.

 

We had the most people and the most fun and the most support when it was a clear division, six shots, iron sights, don't get worked up.  The moonclips cost fifty cents and worked beautifully for everyone. Put a fiber sight on the front and you were done, Smith 625 or 25 were relatively cheap and the pinnacle of equipment.  Now we need eight shots, optics? Think about why you love shooting competitions and see where the equipment race fits into that perception.  

 

What I really want is the experience of going to a major competition, sitting around with my revolver buddies, and broadly speaking never talking about guns or equipment at all. Dem good ol' days.

 

Matt

[RJH]

52 minutes ago, MattInTheHat said:

Some thoughts after I just shot my first match (steel challenge) in five years:

 

1. The 8 shot experiment seems to have failed. Too much good data in this thread to rehash but it seems obvious.

2. Apparently people compare themselves to other equipment divisions? This one mystifies me, why would you do that? Do people who head out to the local dragstrip bemoan their 200hp classic car vs. the local funny car? Why?

3. Revolver is NOT slow. Revolver is the fastest division in USPSA, if you're talking about action. That action isn't necessarily shooting, and I think people keep trying to chase that feeling in the hopes that it will draw in other division shooters. It won't. It's fast because it's complicated.  It isn't hard, just complicated. When shooting a stage that isn't dumbed down for revolvers (looking at you, Revo Nationals) you never have a fraction of a second where you aren't reloading, shooting, or moving, usually at least 2 of the 3.

4. Money and complexity IS a problem. I got into revo because I'm a juggler, not a bobsled. I like chaos, I like complexity, I like a bunch of stuff going crazy all at the same time.  Again, you're not going to figure out how to make a wheelgun feel like a semi and somehow rope people in. If they want easy and bang-bang, then they are going to get it in the other seventy divisions.

5. Six shots cannot compete with 8 shots, just stop that argument. There is no way to make it true, and I suspect the same of optics. I shot a stage at the 2014 Nationals as good as I can shoot a stage, which to be non-humble was pretty damned good.  It was a "Well, I won that stage" event. Came in seventh on that stage. Further dilution of the perception of winning can't help.

6.  One of the silly arguments I heard when 8 was proposed was that people didn't want to deal with the recoil.  Now we're discussing adding major back in, which is it?

7. Participation. The numbers don't lie.  We had a solid cadre of revolver shooters that had a hell of a time hanging out, competing, yapping over drinks, etc. That seems to be gone.

 

We had the most people and the most fun and the most support when it was a clear division, six shots, iron sights, don't get worked up.  The moonclips cost fifty cents and worked beautifully for everyone. Put a fiber sight on the front and you were done, Smith 625 or 25 were relatively cheap and the pinnacle of equipment.  Now we need eight shots, optics? Think about why you love shooting competitions and see where the equipment race fits into that perception.  

 

What I really want is the experience of going to a major competition, sitting around with my revolver buddies, and broadly speaking never talking about guns or equipment at all. Dem good ol' days.

 

Matt

 

Yeah, you are probably some guy who has never hardly shot revolver though.  Probably some kook in his mom"s basement 

 

Seriously though, I have never shot revolver nats or even a level 2 with a revolver, just club matches, but i tend to agree with everything you said

Edited April 28, 2019 by RJH

[radny97]

Some thoughts after I just shot my first match (steel challenge) in five years:
 
1. The 8 shot experiment seems to have failed. Too much good data in this thread to rehash but it seems obvious.
2. Apparently people compare themselves to other equipment divisions? This one mystifies me, why would you do that? Do people who head out to the local dragstrip bemoan their 200hp classic car vs. the local funny car? Why?
3. Revolver is NOT slow. Revolver is the fastest division in USPSA, if you're talking about action. That action isn't necessarily shooting, and I think people keep trying to chase that feeling in the hopes that it will draw in other division shooters. It won't. It's fast because it's complicated.  It isn't hard, just complicated. When shooting a stage that isn't dumbed down for revolvers (looking at you, Revo Nationals) you never have a fraction of a second where you aren't reloading, shooting, or moving, usually at least 2 of the 3.
4. Money and complexity IS a problem. I got into revo because I'm a juggler, not a bobsled. I like chaos, I like complexity, I like a bunch of stuff going crazy all at the same time.  Again, you're not going to figure out how to make a wheelgun feel like a semi and somehow rope people in. If they want easy and bang-bang, then they are going to get it in the other seventy divisions.
5. Six shots cannot compete with 8 shots, just stop that argument. There is no way to make it true, and I suspect the same of optics. I shot a stage at the 2014 Nationals as good as I can shoot a stage, which to be non-humble was pretty damned good.  It was a "Well, I won that stage" event. Came in seventh on that stage. Further dilution of the perception of winning can't help.
6.  One of the silly arguments I heard when 8 was proposed was that people didn't want to deal with the recoil.  Now we're discussing adding major back in, which is it?
7. Participation. The numbers don't lie.  We had a solid cadre of revolver shooters that had a hell of a time hanging out, competing, yapping over drinks, etc. That seems to be gone.
 
We had the most people and the most fun and the most support when it was a clear division, six shots, iron sights, don't get worked up.  The moonclips cost fifty cents and worked beautifully for everyone. Put a fiber sight on the front and you were done, Smith 625 or 25 were relatively cheap and the pinnacle of equipment.  Now we need eight shots, optics? Think about why you love shooting competitions and see where the equipment race fits into that perception.  
 
What I really want is the experience of going to a major competition, sitting around with my revolver buddies, and broadly speaking never talking about guns or equipment at all. Dem good ol' days.
 
Matt

I wholeheartedly agree


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[IHAVEGAS]

13 hours ago, MattInTheHat said:

Six shots cannot compete with 8 shots, just stop that argument. There is no way to make it true, a

 

For practical purposes, I agree that we will not make it true.

 

If we had the will to it would be very easy though. Major and minor scoring values were developed before we scored mainly with computer based devices and 'one size fits all' did not really cause that much heartburn. A computer has no issue with an alpha for major being 6.3 points instead on 5 (or whatever adjustments were found to be best at leveling the field) in the revolver division only. 

[pete627]

It's tough having only 6 shots (major or otherwise) in USPSA …

> snip <

The 8 shots work fine at USPSA (great practice … don't have to pick up brass); Steel Challenge and the weekday steel matches.

> snip <

 

Edited April 28, 2019 by pete627
edit: Removed ICORE rant ... as this thread is about USPSA.

[Bosshoss]

17 hours ago, MattInTheHat said:

Some thoughts after I just shot my first match (steel challenge) in five years:

 

1. The 8 shot experiment seems to have failed. Too much good data in this thread to rehash but it seems obvious.

2. Apparently people compare themselves to other equipment divisions? This one mystifies me, why would you do that? Do people who head out to the local dragstrip bemoan their 200hp classic car vs. the local funny car? Why?

3. Revolver is NOT slow. Revolver is the fastest division in USPSA, if you're talking about action. That action isn't necessarily shooting, and I think people keep trying to chase that feeling in the hopes that it will draw in other division shooters. It won't. It's fast because it's complicated.  It isn't hard, just complicated. When shooting a stage that isn't dumbed down for revolvers (looking at you, Revo Nationals) you never have a fraction of a second where you aren't reloading, shooting, or moving, usually at least 2 of the 3.

4. Money and complexity IS a problem. I got into revo because I'm a juggler, not a bobsled. I like chaos, I like complexity, I like a bunch of stuff going crazy all at the same time.  Again, you're not going to figure out how to make a wheelgun feel like a semi and somehow rope people in. If they want easy and bang-bang, then they are going to get it in the other seventy divisions.

5. Six shots cannot compete with 8 shots, just stop that argument. There is no way to make it true, and I suspect the same of optics. I shot a stage at the 2014 Nationals as good as I can shoot a stage, which to be non-humble was pretty damned good.  It was a "Well, I won that stage" event. Came in seventh on that stage. Further dilution of the perception of winning can't help.

6.  One of the silly arguments I heard when 8 was proposed was that people didn't want to deal with the recoil.  Now we're discussing adding major back in, which is it?

7. Participation. The numbers don't lie.  We had a solid cadre of revolver shooters that had a hell of a time hanging out, competing, yapping over drinks, etc. That seems to be gone.

 

We had the most people and the most fun and the most support when it was a clear division, six shots, iron sights, don't get worked up.  The moonclips cost fifty cents and worked beautifully for everyone. Put a fiber sight on the front and you were done, Smith 625 or 25 were relatively cheap and the pinnacle of equipment.  Now we need eight shots, optics? Think about why you love shooting competitions and see where the equipment race fits into that perception.  

 

What I really want is the experience of going to a major competition, sitting around with my revolver buddies, and broadly speaking never talking about guns or equipment at all. Dem good ol' days.

 

Matt

Matt it was great seeing you on the range again.

Agree with what you said above.

I shoot revolver because I love the challenge of it. Most all the revolver shooters can shoot a auto better than their revolver but that isn't the point of it, like you said it is the complexity of it all. 

I have shot lots of major matches where revolver wasn't recognized because of the low turn out. I NEVER even thought about switching divisions, I just shot for fun(which is what this is supposed to be about).

Some say they want competition to compete against. There are plenty of divisions they can shoot if that is what is most important to them but it is a self fulfilling prophecy(no one is signing up for revolver so neither will I).

 

The Steel Challenge match we shot yesterday was the 3rd steel match I have shot in 2 years and even though I probably  could use a little more of that for practice I still would rather shoot USPSA. It was still FUN.

I really hope to see you at some USPSA matches this year.

 

BTW Matt I know that it has been a while since you shot a match but DAMN when you tied it together you are still fast. Good job.

[mwx40x40]

Have not been thru all 10 + pages of this thread.  But if we want successful Level II/III matches, use the formulas that worked in the past. The SS/Revo Nats held in Barry,IL.. Or, The Memphis Charity matches. These were the best attended revo matches I’ve ever shot. Also, the most fun I have had with revo.

These were stand alone matches where you did not have to chose between Revo or Production,etc.

I am sure there are other parameters involved, but these matches have had no equal in Revo attendance.