Can we find a way to save USPSA Revo?

[pskys2]

16 hours ago, Carmoney said:

 

Actually, if you were active on the BE Revolver Forum back at the time the 8-shot option was being discussed, then you were asked!  We conducted a poll here which drew a great deal of interest and comment, and was watched closely by USPSA leadership.  The poll participants favored allowing the 8-shooters by an approximate 2-to-1 margin.  

Unfortunately except for the stand alone Nationals after the SS it didn't end up helping either.

Lost a few, gained a few in the end it has slipped back into obscurity.

With SS, L10 and Revolvers anything outside of a stand alone match is a killer, just the nature of the beast.

A  major PF 8 shot revolver w/without a dot would be fun, now what kind of Comp could I put on, maybe one I could take it off and on?  

Or opening up the rules to no restrictions except major 6 would be fun. Lets see what would a comp'd 45 acp six shot feel like?  Put a comp on my 8 shot w/dot?

Ultimately either way I won't sign up and pay $100 to shoot in a division with only a handful of competitors anymore.

Edited February 27, 2019 by pskys2

[MWP]

All we are getting with 8 major or dots is what we have now- the same scoring for everyone. All we would be doing by adding major to the current round count is ostracizing the people who went out and spent a lot of money on 929s. ICORE is still mostly populated by guns with iron sights, there can’t be that much of a draw to them. 

 

Going to 8 round guns made the division more appealing. Having a new gun be released that used a common caliber made the division more appealing. Having a stand-alone nationals, the day after the largest, like minded (lo-cap) shooters, made a difference. 

 

I get questions all the time from new revolver shooters about gear and technique and different matches. I don’t think the answer to making the division more interesting is to require more money be thrown at the equipment, but to be thrown at the game itself. 

 

Host bigger revolver matches. Stand alone nationals worked because lots of people who were already counting to 8 were there. The IRC works because it is the big revolver match. Western States works because it’s warm in Phoenix and there’s a lot of things to do besides shoot (and you can shoot 2 guns.) Matches like PSA work because they’re fun and the format is easy. Give people an incentive to travel to these matches. USPSA revolver isn’t very easy, in fact it’s probably the hardest; Why do we who like a challenge just assume everyone else does too? 

[MikeBurgess]

  We need to remember that shooting a revo fast and accurately is hard and by nature most people want easy, see the rise of PCC (rifle at a pistol match unlimited ammo), CO (low recoil and a dot) ,  the forever dominance of Limited (major scoring lots of bullets) and Open divisions you will see that they account for the vast majority of USPSA shooters. Low cap shooters in general are the minority and we probably already have most of those shooters that are willing to play the game the hard way. 

 

I think our best hope as a division is in stand alone or companion matches ICORE on the local level or like the IRC or WSRC, etc on the major match level.  The other place we can get a few more shooters is at Steel Challenge because the capacity issue is much less relevant. 

[Kurusty]

[emoji3595][emoji3595][emoji3595] exactly!

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

[RJH]

30 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

  We need to remember that shooting a revo fast and accurately is hard and by nature most people want easy, see the rise of PCC (rifle at a pistol match unlimited ammo), CO (low recoil and a dot) ,  the forever dominance of Limited (major scoring lots of bullets) and Open divisions you will see that they account for the vast majority of USPSA shooters. Low cap shooters in general are the minority and we probably already have most of those shooters that are willing to play the game the hard way. 

 

I think our best hope as a division is in stand alone or companion matches ICORE on the local level or like the IRC or WSRC, etc on the major match level.  The other place we can get a few more shooters is at Steel Challenge because the capacity issue is much less relevant. 

 

Maybe people like the high cap divisions cause they are a shooting contest and not a reloading contest.  I shoot a DA revolver just about as well as anything, but maybe i am in the minority.  I shot revo some, and ss/l10 a lot, but i just got rid of my SS gun and am now shooting a plastic gun in limited because after several years i got tired of reloading.  That, and mainly the switch to 8 minor, caused me to never take revolver serious and i like shooting revolvers.  Hell, i shot a revolver, garand, and pump in a three gun match before.  I am pretty firmly in the camp of not buying 1500 dollars in equipment to shoot against myself.  If a bunch of guys want to show up to a club match with speed loaders, 6 shots, and major, i am probably in though

[MikeyScuba]

I find my revolver easier than my standard 40 gun to shoot.  Up here it’s 10 round max anyway so 8 isn’t a huge disadvantage.

[MikeBurgess]

2 hours ago, RJH said:

 

 I shoot a DA revolver just about as well as anything, but maybe i am in the minority. 

From my experience I would say yes you are a minority in being able to shoot a revo as well as anything else. 

 

I can shoot a revo reasonably well, but its still not the same as an auto.

For example, about the best I can do is a .2 split with a revo and that's hard for me, but with an auto I can hit .15s  no problem.  

Revo reloads are low 2s auto reloads are low 1s  

so capacity aside for me shooting a revo is just takes longer.

 

 

 

[Yardbird]

I used to enjoy shooting a GP100, 610, and 657,  but I haven't shot revolver since USPSA went to 8 rounds.  USPSA should not have made six shooters obsolete .

[swordfish]

21 hours ago, Carmoney said:

 

Ten or fifteen years ago we had enough revo participation at bigger matches to make it fun, but a lot of that interest was driven by a few guys who went out of their way to really promote and push it.  I had several close friends that would fly anywhere in the country to shoot revos against each other, based on good-natured challenges, trash talk, and taunting!  It was an absolute blast.  

 

Much tougher to organize that sort of thing these days.  (Sidebar:  Steve Horsman is putting great effort into keeping it alive through his annual WSRC match at Rio Salado and I hope it sticks, even if it becomes a specialty outlaw event.)  A couple years ago, I posted several BE Forum threads with titles like "Who's Shooting Revo at Area X?" and got very little response, and I finally gave up the effort.

Never heard of it. Or rather, I did, then I thought it was dead cause no one ever posted about it and none of my friends talked about it. Then I saw a post about the SS match and how Rich won 2nd, and was confused that they allowed revos in a SS match. Then I found out the revo match was a Friday thing. Yet still no one ever said anything about it. Still less than 50 showed up though. MWP texted me the day after asking if I shot it, that was it. Problem is, it's all the way out there. My friends have other priorities or no money, so it's hard to make it work. Then when matches come this way or even down in Florida everyone bitches about the venue.

[RJH]

1 hour ago, MikeBurgess said:

From my experience I would say yes you are a minority in being able to shoot a revo as well as anything else. 

 

I can shoot a revo reasonably well, but its still not the same as an auto.

For example, about the best I can do is a .2 split with a revo and that's hard for me, but with an auto I can hit .15s  no problem.  

Revo reloads are low 2s auto reloads are low 1s  

so capacity aside for me shooting a revo is just takes longer.

 

 

 

I guess what i am getting at is me not shooting revolver has nothing to do with being .05 slower in splits. Obviously the reloads are slower, but that ain't shooting haha.  That is why revolver is a reloading contest more than a shooting contest.  But I, and I think many others that don't shoot revolvers anymore, don't shoot them for reasons other than it being "harder", that was my main point

[RJH]

52 minutes ago, Yardbird said:

I used to enjoy shooting a GP100, 610, and 657,  but I haven't shot revolver since USPSA went to 8 rounds.  USPSA should not have made six shooters obsolete .

 

This is exactly what i was getting at.  I agree wholeheartedly 

[Jay1957]

We have a couple of regular revolver shooters in our area. If I jump into the 8 shot world is there a preference of 627 vs 929. I already reload 38 and 9mm. Don’t mind moving to 38sc. Not trying to hijack thread, I’m just wondering if it’s more than preference.

[1911Prof]

Regardless of decisions made in the past, the question is still how should we proceed to get more people showing up with revolvers in their hands in the future.  I guess one possible answer is go back to 6 round only with speed loaders and hope that people will come out of the woodwork, but that didn't work before, so I don't think that rose tinted glasses are going to help in the future.  

[Gomar83]

Well here’s my thing I do want to get into running a revolver. In fact I just bought a new 625 JM and am getting it tuned one step at a time. My only problem is there is no one around me to work with. I have to drive 2 hrs plus to find anyone to shoot with. So what advice would you guys give me? I would like to compete and have fun, but I do have a limited budget holding me back.

[1911Prof]

2 minutes ago, Gomar83 said:

Well here’s my thing I do want to get into running a revolver. In fact I just bought a new 625 JM and am getting it tuned one step at a time. My only problem is there is no one around me to work with. I have to drive 2 hrs plus to find anyone to shoot with. So what advice would you guys give me? I would like to compete and have fun, but I do have a limited budget holding me back.

I feel your pain, I am trying to remember if I have ever got to shoot a match with another revolver shooter but if you ever make it down to Cedar Falls/Waterloo we can shoot a match together

[Mcfoto]

29 minutes ago, Jay1957 said:

We have a couple of regular revolver shooters in our area. If I jump into the 8 shot world is there a preference of 627 vs 929. I already reload 38 and 9mm. Don’t mind moving to 38sc. Not trying to hijack thread, I’m just wondering if it’s more than preference.

 

You might want to do a search on the revolver forum in general. Both have their merits. I ultimately went with 627 because I was loading.38 and not 9. but ultimately ended up down the Short Colt rabbit hole which is 9 with a rim. I also felt the 627 fit my hands better. Your results may vary.

[Gomar83]

1911Prof we should get together as soon as it get nice out. PM sent!

[RJH]

8 minutes ago, 1911Prof said:

Regardless of decisions made in the past, the question is still how should we proceed to get more people showing up with revolvers in their hands in the future.  I guess one possible answer is go back to 6 round only with speed loaders and hope that people will come out of the woodwork, but that didn't work before, so I don't think that rose tinted glasses are going to help in the future.  

 

6 round speed loader subset, then initial investment is small. I think that would have the best chance of getting new shooters to try out revolver.  Maybe that, combined with calling section coordinators and getting them to host a revolver section championship, with normal uspsa revolvers and "stock" for lack of a better term, revolvers.  The coordinators could run the match right along with their standard monthly match, just maybe set it 6 round friendly, so no real extra work for them.  By making a "special" match once  a year or so, maybe people would get their feet wet and decide they like revolver.  So, there you go a simple solution without really any rule changes that might increase revolver participation in the long term

[Gomar83]

RJH so now this sounds very interesting and sounds like it would be fun. I would think it would possibly bring in more/new shooters, but the only to get this to work and grow in good promoting and consistency from one year to the next.

[Jay1957]

18 minutes ago, Mcfoto said:

 

You might want to do a search on the revolver forum in general. Both have their merits. I ultimately went with 627 because I was loading.38 and not 9. but ultimately ended up down the Short Colt rabbit hole which is 9 with a rim. I also felt the 627 fit my hands better. Your results may vary.

Thanks. Did that and came to same conclisuion. I’ll go for fit.

[Gomar83]

A 627 and a 610 are on my list of revolvers to buy in the future.

[mchapman]

10 hours ago, Alaskan454 said:

It's a complicated problem with many variables.

 

In my personal experience I have seen ICORE shooters who simply prefer to shoot a semi auto at USPSA matches.  They will shoot ICORE, IDPA, or Steel Challenge with a revo, but do not view USPSA as their "revo match".  One example is hard core Cowboy shooters who love their single action revolvers (and own several pairs of them), but still shoot a Glock or 1911 when they come out to other matches.  You really can't control personal preference. 

 

One way to approach that angle is provide them with your gear and let them try it during a practice session or after the regular match is over.  At least one shooter I met completely converted to revolvers after trying a 627 worked over by BossHoss.  He was primarily a Limited shooter before that point.  I actually remember one Open shooter who was surprisingly good with my 929 from the first moonclip fired.  One day I hope he'll give it a try.

 

Another factor is balancing our existing shooters versus potentially new shooters.  If you make the division more expensive to try, you are hedging more bets on increasing new participation and hoping existing shooters already own an optic for their 627/929.  Many shooters have asked me what it costs to get set-up with an iron sight 929 and full rig.  They will then usually say I'm better off spending that money on "insert other division here".  Usually that division is PCC, Limited, or Production. 

 

Now if we add optics to the equation and fix everything else you add another $200+ for every person getting started.  Some will spend up to $500 for better optics.  Now, those of us that have been doing this for a few years will say that $200 is a single LII/LIII match fee in some cases.  Those who only shoot club level will view that as an entire year's budget for match fees plus many boxes of 9mm ammo.  Further illustrating the differences in perspective, I just had to Google what 9mm ammo costs because I haven't bought it in so long.  It was surprisingly cheap.  I saw one place selling Federal bulk for $0.14 per round.  

 

For me personally, I finally got a second 929 and have dedicated revolvers with irons and optics.  So I wouldn't be super upset if we forced optics into the equation.  I would however be kind of annoyed if they coupled that with Major PF.  I don't think my 929 is going to safely make Major without a good bit of R&D.  I'd likely end up needing to buy another dedicated USPSA revolver in 357 along with new moonclips, loading tool, and brass.  Given the prevalence of 929s right now, many would be in a similar position.  The other option is to have a custom cylinder made in 38 super and fit it to my 929.  That way I could use the same bullets and moonclips I'm currently using and save a good bit of time and money.  To be honest, I would keep it 6/Major and 8/Minor unless there is overwhelming evidence that people want to move towards Major PF.  8 Major has no appeal to me personally.

 

One idea which I've heard before is to allow dots and everyone still shoots minor.  The catch would be that iron sight guns get scored as major.  With our game I don't actually know if that would entice anyone to give Revo a try, but it's an interesting idea.  

 

Lastly, no matter what ideas and suggestions get thrown around, they should be tested before changing Revolver Division rules.  One option here would be to have a standalone Revolver Nationals, or large LII/LIII match where you have Open Revolver offered as a category to test the proposed rule changes.  This would be the only solution I see to find out if other shooters would come out to play.  You might be surprised how few, or also how many people opt for the Open Revolver division.

 

 

A recent good example of that just happened at the Western States Revo Match, using round numbers 50 wheelguns, out of those 5 Optic shooters, so 10%. I don't know that it would change a lot in other areas because that area in particular has a rather large contingent of ICORE and SASS shooters as well as USPSA Revo guys. I would have expected more Open wheel guns to come and play.

[Alaskan454]

6 hours ago, mchapman said:

A recent good example of that just happened at the Western States Revo Match, using round numbers 50 wheelguns, out of those 5 Optic shooters, so 10%. I don't know that it would change a lot in other areas because that area in particular has a rather large contingent of ICORE and SASS shooters as well as USPSA Revo guys. I would have expected more Open wheel guns to come and play.

I just checked out the scores and they did surprise me a bit.  One chose to shoot Major, only four Open Minor.

[Alaskan454]

16 hours ago, MWP said:

All we are getting with 8 major or dots is what we have now- the same scoring for everyone. All we would be doing by adding major to the current round count is ostracizing the people who went out and spent a lot of money on 929s. ICORE is still mostly populated by guns with iron sights, there can’t be that much of a draw to them. 

 

Going to 8 round guns made the division more appealing. Having a new gun be released that used a common caliber made the division more appealing. Having a stand-alone nationals, the day after the largest, like minded (lo-cap) shooters, made a difference. 

 

I get questions all the time from new revolver shooters about gear and technique and different matches. I don’t think the answer to making the division more interesting is to require more money be thrown at the equipment, but to be thrown at the game itself. 

 

Host bigger revolver matches. Stand alone nationals worked because lots of people who were already counting to 8 were there. The IRC works because it is the big revolver match. Western States works because it’s warm in Phoenix and there’s a lot of things to do besides shoot (and you can shoot 2 guns.) Matches like PSA work because they’re fun and the format is easy. Give people an incentive to travel to these matches. USPSA revolver isn’t very easy, in fact it’s probably the hardest; Why do we who like a challenge just assume everyone else does too? 

I agree with all of this.  Especially the last portion.  Shooters I know will not bring a round gun out unless it's a "revolver match". I do think grouping Single Stack and Revo into a common match works.  Just force autos to shoot one day and revolvers the next.

[ZackJones]

Revolvers are welcome in Steel Challenge (It's not that they aren't welcome in USPSA handgun matches). Yeah I know it's nothing like the run and gun action of a USPSA match. For those that don't know me I'm the Steel Challenge flunky for USPSA. On our side of the house we are seeing an increase in revolver participation based on the number of classified competitors. When we moved the classification by division back in 2016 we had 143 iron sight classifications and 61 optical sight classifications. As of yesterday we have 393 ISR classification and 195 OSR classifications. The world speed shooting championship is coming up in May and we have 587 guns registered so far. We have 8 in ISR and 11 in OSR. The man himself, Jerry Miculek, is even registered but sadly she's shooting rimfire pistol and rifle :(. I love shooting all guns in Steel Challenge and I'll be shooting OSR (S&W 929) this weekend at the GA Steel match in Griffin GA.