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B_RAD

Classifier set up and throwing out

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A classifier gets set up and you can spot that it's not per the diagram with the naked eye, do you throw it out?

 

18-01 got set up at my local club. The two boxes are supposed to be 7.5' on each side of the centerline of the stage. When standing in the left box, you're basically in a straight line with the most left target. The right box does not fall out mirrored. It fell between the last and secound to last. It was obvious they were not mirror images by at least a couple of feet. 

 

I brought it up to the MD while my squad was shooting it (we were the first) he said he'd look at it. When I brought it up after the match, he said he asked the squad he was on if they felt it was a big enough deal (paraphrasing). I guess they didnt?  

 

IMO, if there's something thats obviously not correct to, it's not set up correct for a classifier and should not be uploaded as one. It can still count for match score but shouldn't count for a classifer. Again, we're talking about an issue that is obvious without measuring. 

 

Thoughts?

Edited by B_RAD

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A classifier gets set up and you can spot that it's not per the diagram with the naked eye, do you throw it out?
 
18-01 got set up at my local club. The two boxes are supposed to be 7.5' on each side of the centerline of the stage. When standing in the left box, you're basically in a straight line with the most left target. The right box is not mirrored. It fell between the last and secound to last. 
 
I brought it up to the MD while my squad was shooting it ((we were the first) he said he'd look at it. . When I brought it up after the match, he said he asked the squad he was on if they felt it was a big enough deal (paraphrasing). I guess they didnt?  
 
IMO, if there's something thats obviously not correct to, it's not set up correct for a classifier and should not be uploaded as one. It can still count for match score but shouldn't count for a classifer. Again, we're talking about an issue that is obvious without measuring. 
 
Thoughts?
That MD is very moronic in his approach if that is what he said to you. It is his DUTY as a MD to maintain the integrity of the sport. So, if a classifier stage is incorrect it doesn't count as a classifier but just becomes a stage. Been apart of it a few times.

Kudos to you for bringing it up.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

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4 minutes ago, Rnlinebacker said:

That MD is very moronic in his approach if that is what he said to you. It is his DUTY as a MD to maintain the integrity of the sport. So, if a classifier stage is incorrect it doesn't count as a classifier but just becomes a stage. Been apart of it a few times.

Kudos to you for bringing it up.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
 

To be fair to him, he's new to the job and he's worried folks were going to feel like they didn't get their money's worth if it got throw out. Most everyone in my squad bombed it so bad they won't count for score. Though, that's besides the point. 

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To be fair to him, he's new to the job and he's worried folks were going to feel like they didn't get their money's worth if it got throw out. Most everyone in my squad bombed it so bad they won't count for score. Though, that's besides the point. 
I hear ya but I don't feel ya. It's a very daunting task being an MD but if you're not gonna be committed to the integrity of the game then the role isn't for him. He shouldn't be falling victim to the snowflaking that MIGHT occur.

It's a game not real life. If it gets thrown out, so what? It's a privilege for us competitors to have these matches available not a right.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

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It should be tossed. If its 1 inch off by the diagram it needs to be tossed. f*#k anyone's feelings on this subject. Either do it right or dont do it at all.

 

Also... USPSA needs to do a much better job with these diagrams. Especially in regards to no shoot placement. They have always been lazy with this.

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I doubt anyone gets the set up correct.  What was wrong with the setup? 

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You did the right thing. Find a few other respected, knowledgeable shooters and take the MD out for beer and wings after the match. Tell him how much you appreciate his hard work and that you all are willing to come out early and help set up so you can all make sure things like this don't happen as often.

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5 minutes ago, AWLAZS said:

I doubt anyone gets the set up correct.  What was wrong with the setup? 

Read the OP. 

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Classifier are extremely or can be to set up correct!  Half assing them, is not ok IMO!

 

That's why, if I was MD, I'd choose the simplest ones. The ones with a lot of walls, no shoots, and far distance targets are easier to set up incorrect. 

 

The last MD at this club used a freaking range finder to set them up. If it's within a yard I guess he thought that was good enough. Luckily he got ran off!

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If only a dollar went into my bank account every time someone expressed the opinion, "ahh it's just a local come on...." to excuse not doing something.

 

ps-how did you not 100 that classifier?

Edited by rowdyb

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Just now, B_RAD said:

Read the OP. 

I see you just fixed it.  I would leave it and count it.  Unless you bring a survey crew out to the range to run the tape and check all the angles something is always out of wack.

 

I have set up countless classifies my goal is to be perfect  I hardly ever am.

 

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I haven't seen one tossed.

I have seen them fixed and reshot. I'm sure some have had errors that went unnoticed. The few have been caught have been pre match or by the first squad, MDs always jump right to straightening it out.

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16 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

If only a dollar went into my bank account every time someone expressed the opinion, "ahh it's just a local come on...." to excuse not doing something.

 

ps-how did you not 100 that classifier?

Ha ha. I dq'd. 

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15 minutes ago, AWLAZS said:

I see you just fixed it.  I would leave it and count it.  Unless you bring a survey crew out to the range to run the tape and check all the angles something is always out of wack.

 

I have set up countless classifies my goal is to be perfect  I hardly ever am.

 

Yeah but there's a difference in not being 100% when you bust out the tape and being off be a few feet visable by just looking

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1 hour ago, Maximis228 said:

It should be tossed. If its 1 inch off by the diagram it needs to be tossed. f*#k anyone's feelings on this subject. Either do it right or dont do it at all.

 

Also... USPSA needs to do a much better job with these diagrams. Especially in regards to no shoot placement. They have always been lazy with this.

I would say that 1" is too restrictive for a general standard. Most target stands do not hold target sicks in a way that is tight enough to maintain that standard through 2 shooters, let alone a whole match.  

 

My standard is is does any variance make a difference in the shooting challenge presented? No shoot put in wrong place by 1/8" may make a huge difference (perf's are not aligned etc.), a open target off by a foot or more may not (149' from the shooting box vs 150) if it makes a difference then it gets fixed or tossed if it doesn't then I don't worry about it. 

 

I do my best to get them as correct as I can, but I'm good working within the limits of the props being used. 

 

 

 

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I have had to throw out a classifier because it was set up incorrectly.

It stinks, but what else can you do. 

We have a dedicated group of volunteers that helps us setup our stages and it's my job as the match director to make sure they are right (especially the classifiers) before the match begins.

In three years of running matches it has only happened once so I guess that isn't too bad, but it was still disappointing.

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Drop it as a classifier and keep the stage in the match.  If its not "right " shouldn't use it to compare to what others have done. 

 

Paul

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USPSA is pretty good about putting all the minutiae in describing how the classifiers are to be built.  If a match director can't follow the basic instructions, it reflects poorly on him/her and the affiliated club.  Attention to detail is essential for the classifiers.  If it is wrong throw it out.

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When in doubt, ask NROI with as much information as you can provide.

 

Years ago we had a barricade out of place on a classifier.  Much woe amongst the shooters that did well on it and wanted it to count.

 

E-mailed NROI to ask what to do, with pictures and all.

 

They said '"send it in, not a significant change to the stage"

 

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On 2/4/2019 at 10:02 AM, B_RAD said:

Ha ha. I dq'd. 

Trowing out? Never heard of it...but that's why we usually shoot classifiers that are easy to set up. Then we won't have whiny new open shooters complaining about set up! LOL 🙂 

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10 hours ago, JJB05 said:

USPSA is pretty good about putting all the minutiae in describing how the classifiers are to be built.  If a match director can't follow the basic instructions, it reflects poorly on him/her and the affiliated club.  Attention to detail is essential for the classifiers.  If it is wrong throw it out.

 

Agreed.

 

Come match day the MD usually stays pretty busy.  At our local matches, WSB's are handed out to a hardy crew of volunteers to do the stage set up.  If time allows, I'm sure the MD will cruise by each stage before the match begins but I suspect the main reason he or she does so is with an eye for safety.

 

Very few of the Classifiers are so new that no one on the first squad of the day has never shot them before.  With the WSB posted at the stage, each shooter has the opportunity to look it over.  If something does not look right, ask some questions.  Get the MD involved if needed.  Either fix it or shoot it as another stage.  

 

Don't blame the MD for ever little detail when there are others that could have got involved and didn't.

 

The one time I spotted problems on a Classifier (wrong size poppers) the MD bent over backwards to fix it ASAP.

Edited by Flatland Shooter

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10 minutes ago, Prov1x said:

Trowing out? Never heard of it...but that's why we usually shoot classifiers that are easy to set up. Then we won't have whiny new open shooters complaining about set up! LOL 🙂 

Oh no you didn't!  

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4 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

Oh no you didn't!  

Hahahaha 

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