Classifier set up and throwing out

[Maximis228]

Tom Palmer (RM) shoots at my local club im the MD of (He was MD prior to me)... He is father time himself when it comes to USPSA. He was one of the few that helped write the rulebook and continues to help improve it along with the classifier system.

 

Even he thinks the diagrams are lacking in many areas. This has been a topic of discussion over the years. Its a constant issue that isn't addressed. 80+% of the classifiers are fine but there are a lot with vague or missing information. There is a reason people tend to shoot the same ones over and over. They are easier to set up and have more information provided.

 

An easy one ive seen set up vastly different is Down The Middle. The angle and gaps between target vary widely club to club.

[CHA-LEE]

Over the years I have only seen a handful of classifiers setup incorrectly at local matches. The majority of the time these issues were found before the match started and were rectified by the match staff or I would simply fix it myself. I can only remember two instances where the incorrect classifier setup wasn't found until after the match and in both of those cases the stage was edited in the scoring to NOT be a classifier but just a normal stage. So technically the stage wasn't thrown out, it was simply invalidated as a classifier.

 

Yes there are some classifier stage diagrams that have somewhat vague setup measurements or requirements, but the biggest challenge I see with them is inconsistency of where the setup information is located. Sometimes the measurements are listed obviously on the drawing itself and other times its defined in text within the WSB. The majority of the time when I see people having issues with setting up classifiers accurately its because they are 100% relying on the drawing or the text and not both combined.

 

If the match staff are simply being lazy in their classifier setup and don't care if its accurate or not, then the solution is simple. If you are not going to do the job right, then don't do the job. There are no excuse these lazy people can provide which justify not doing the job properly. 

[MikeBurgess]

The Big question in all this seems to be what constitutes "Wrong" 

 

I have seen obviously wrong only a couple times, both were no-shoots incorrectly overlaying shoot targets, one time giving several inches more A and one time less A, these stages were not reported as classifiers.

 

I have seen stages where the gaps between targets have shifted and are no longer equal many times, (think targets supposed to be 12" apart but one is leaning a bit so only 8 on one side and 14 on the other) I have never viewed these to be a issue requiring not reporting them because the shooting challenge has not changed in any meaningful way. 

 

Stages with barriers obscuring targets are seldom set up "perfectly" at any level of match, for example on the new classifier 18-09 "I miss that kind of clarity" when set up at Nationals, you will notice that many shooters on the first string, starting at the rear they shot the right target first then the left target as they started moving forward, this was because the left target was visible about a foot further forward in the shooting area than the right target.  If I set it up and both targets disappear at the same instant as the layout on the diagram calls for is that Wrong? Should the classifier itself be thrown out because it was not set up perfectly to begin with? 

 

 

 

[Nathanb]

I’ve had to pull classifiers. It sucks. As an MD it burns my ass when it happens because it’s on me. I’ve learned to pick classifiers that doesn’t require a PhD to set up. 

[MikeBurgess]

6 minutes ago, Nathanb said:

I’ve had to pull classifiers. It sucks. As an MD it burns my ass when it happens because it’s on me. I’ve learned to pick classifiers that doesn’t require a PhD to set up. 

I've found its the seemingly simple ones that get messed up most often, no-shoots or hardcover going to the wrong corners is most common error I see. The more complicated layouts tend to get looked at harder by the setup crew

 

 

[davidb72]

19 hours ago, Nathanb said:

I’ve had to pull classifiers. It sucks. As an MD it burns my ass when it happens because it’s on me. I’ve learned to pick classifiers that doesn’t require a PhD to set up. 

Good news guys - we're shooting El Pres again this week!

 

[Nathanb]

Lol it’s not that bad but I have seen some stages get messed up in some very creative ways. There are also some classifiers that you can’t make heads or tails out of how the targets are supposed to be overplayed. Or require multiple people to get in place l. I avoid those

[hurley326]

I’ve had to throw out Tick Tock this month’s match and it was because there was not an X on the table. Despite in the WSB it is not stated where the X should have been so we could have put it anywhere. Setup help is extremely thin and I never made it around to double check on the classifiers this month.

 

A second classifier we shot this month also got thrown out. I forget the name but it had a target at 56 feet from the starting box  and the target was instead 56 feet and 6 inches. 

 

It killed me inside that we missed that. It’s totally on me as MD, I just can’t create more time and that’s what caused the oversight. With only 4 guys including myself setting up 5 large high round count stages and 2 classifiers is tough. It was a really frustrating month and the first time we have had to throw out classifiers. The one shooter who brought to my attention the missing X on table for Tick Tock, told me about it AFTER he zeroed the stage. How ironic!

[MikeBurgess]

A second classifier we shot this month also got thrown out. I forget the name but it had a target at 56 feet from the starting box  and the target was instead 56 feet and 6 inches

6 inches at 56 feet is not nearly enough to cause me not to turn in a classifier.

I look at it this way, does the dimensional inaccuracy change the shooting chalange in some real way? If yes toss it if no turn it in.



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[shred]

Repeating from earlier, if you ever have a question about when to send a classifier in, ask USPSA HQ.  It's super easy to snap a picture and send it along.  Unless its an egregious error like no-shoot placement that changes the difficulty significantly, they'll likely allow it, because nobody can get them 100% perfect when the wind is gusting on a lumpy outdoor range either.  Let alone with bags on them or cranky old steel that leans a little to one side or the other. 

[Sarge]

2 hours ago, hurley326 said:

I’ve had to throw out Tick Tock this month’s match and it was because there was not an X on the table. Despite in the WSB it is not stated where the X should have been so we could have put it anywhere. Setup help is extremely thin and I never made it around to double check on the classifiers this month.

 

A second classifier we shot this month also got thrown out. I forget the name but it had a target at 56 feet from the starting box  and the target was instead 56 feet and 6 inches. 

 

It killed me inside that we missed that. It’s totally on me as MD, I just can’t create more time and that’s what caused the oversight. With only 4 guys including myself setting up 5 large high round count stages and 2 classifiers is tough. It was a really frustrating month and the first time we have had to throw out classifiers. The one shooter who brought to my attention the missing X on table for Tick Tock, told me about it AFTER he zeroed the stage. How ironic!

That’s not ironic. That’s just how many USPSA shooters roll. I know a few who’s reputation precedes them when it comes to this stuff. How nice it must make them feel when setup crew says something needs to be (insert name here) proofed or he will get it thrown out. Especially after a bad run.

[Sarge]

1 minute ago, shred said:

If you ever have a question about when to send a classifier in, ask USPSA HQ.  Unless its an egregious error that changes the difficulty significantly, they'll likely allow it, because nobody can get them perfect when the wind is blowing on a lumpy outdoor range either.  Let alone with bags on them or cranky old steel that leans a little to one side or the other.

 

Agreed. I have heard that is often the case if we make the effort

[Racinready300ex]

3 hours ago, hurley326 said:

The one shooter who brought to my attention the missing X on table for Tick Tock, told me about it AFTER he zeroed the stage. How ironic!

 

I wounder what he thought he was gaining. (If he did) I mean a zero wont count on anybodies classification. And he still going to have a zero on that stage in the match.

[hurley326]

That’s not ironic. That’s just how many USPSA shooters roll. I know a few who’s reputation precedes them when it comes to this stuff. How nice it must make them feel when setup crew says something needs to be (insert name here) proofed or he will get it thrown out. Especially after a bad run.

We are bound by the rules and they are important no doubt. But when someone does that and screws over 45 other people it’s going to rub a lot of people the wrong way. I don’t mind them pointing it out I just wish they helped with setup and could have found the error sooner so it didn’t negatively impact so many other shooters.



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[Flatland Shooter]

4 hours ago, hurley326 said:

The one shooter who brought to my attention the missing X on table for Tick Tock, told me about it AFTER he zeroed the stage. How ironic!

 

Was it possible he was pushing for a reshoot?   He may have thought that it should have been offered to any shooter that requested it.

[CHA-LEE]

Herley326> Being short staffed shouldn't force you to circumvent the accuracy of the stage setup, especially the classifiers. It may delay the start of the match but the setup accuracy should remain intact. If your competitors whine about the delay in the start of the match then the response is simple "Grab a hammer and start pounding nails on the stages so we can start on time". Keep in mind that lazy competitors will allow the bulk of the work to be saddled on the minority. You need to make it clear to all competitors that running club matches isn't a 100% consumer product that everyone can simply show up and do nothing to make it happen. Volunteer help from many is required to make it happen.

[Nathanb]

24 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

Herley326> Being short staffed shouldn't force you to circumvent the accuracy of the stage setup, especially the classifiers. It may delay the start of the match but the setup accuracy should remain intact. If your competitors whine about the delay in the start of the match then the response is simple "Grab a hammer and start pounding nails on the stages so we can start on time". Keep in mind that lazy competitors will allow the bulk of the work to be saddled on the minority. You need to make it clear to all competitors that running club matches isn't a 100% consumer product that everyone can simply show up and do nothing to make it happen. Volunteer help from many is required to make it happen.

This is something I need to remember. I struggle at this and trying to keep things on track. I shouldn’t have the mindset as a one man show

[rowdyb]

I'd be upset if a target being at 56'6" instead of 56'0" was enough to get it tossed. That is literally a 1% difference in distance.

[IHAVEGAS]

 

On 2/6/2019 at 12:21 PM, MikeBurgess said:

 

Stages with barriers obscuring targets are seldom set up "perfectly" at any level of match, for example on the new classifier 18-09 "I miss that kind of clarity" when set up at Nationals, you will notice that many shooters on the first string, starting at the rear they shot the right target first then the left target as they started moving forward, this was because the left target was visible about a foot further forward in the shooting area than the right target.  If I set it up and both targets disappear at the same instant as the layout on the diagram calls for is that Wrong? Should the classifier itself be thrown out because it was not set up perfectly to begin with? 

 

 

 

 

6 hours ago, shred said:

Repeating from earlier, if you ever have a question about when to send a classifier in, ask USPSA HQ.  It's super easy to snap a picture and send it along.  Unless its an egregious error like no-shoot placement that changes the difficulty significantly, they'll likely allow it, because nobody can get them 100% perfect when the wind is gusting on a lumpy outdoor range either.  Let alone with bags on them or cranky old steel that leans a little to one side or the other. 

 

3 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

I'd be upset if a target being at 56'6" instead of 56'0" was enough to get it tossed. That is literally a 1% difference in distance.

 

Common sense is a wonderful thing.

 

If you put an exacting (silly) enough measuring standard in place you'd probably find that most people have never even shot 1 correct classifier. 

[rowdyb]

9 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

 

 

 

Common sense is a wonderful thing.

 

If you put an exacting (silly) enough measuring standard in place you'd probably find that most people have never even shot 1 correct classifier.  

i stopped offering to help build the classifier stage because of this type on inanity at places.

[shred]

These mostly were Nationals and Area match stages.  I'm confident they weren't all measured out with a laser transit and calibrated surveying gear with the HHF set at standard temperature, pressure and light conditions.  If it's not different enough to get the stage tossed from a match day to day, it's not going to change anything else, despite all the bitching and moaning from the house grandbaggers and sandbaggers.

 

 

 

[davidb72]

We shot CM 18-09 I Miss That Kind of Clarity this past weekend and I had a shooter tell me that the outside targets were presented differently than they had seen at other clubs. I had another shooter in the same conversation tell me that they were the same as they had seen them before...

Stuff like that makes me want to set up El Pres every month and forget about trying to set up the more complicated classifiers.

[Nathanb]

5 minutes ago, davidb72 said:

We shot CM 18-09 I Miss That Kind of Clarity this past weekend and I had a shooter tell me that the outside targets were presented differently than they had seen at other clubs. I had another shooter in the same conversation tell me that they were the same as they had seen them before...

Stuff like that makes me want to set up El Pres every month and forget about trying to set up the more complicated classifiers.

We shot this one last match and I had someone say they didn’t think it was right. I do appreciate the 18 series having more detail in it though

[rowdyb]

Who isn't to say it was the first example they saw that was wrong..

[Beef15]

19 hours ago, rowdyb said:

I'd be upset if a target being at 56'6" instead of 56'0" was enough to get it tossed. That is literally a 1% difference in distance.

Who? Other than the folks that set it up, measures with a tape? You're not pacing off with that accuracy, any deviation in foot placement could equal or exceed that error, not sure many range finders are that on. I've seen many target stands allow that much fore an aft lean, "uh oh, wind blew he got a 8" advantage, toss the classifier"

 

There are people that make it hard to enjoy this sport. Yes a line must be drawn somewhere, but less than 1% deviation is pretty dang good in an imperfect environment.