Classifier set up and throwing out

[ChuckS]

1 hour ago, davidb72 said:

We shot CM 18-09 I Miss That Kind of Clarity this past weekend and I had a shooter tell me that the outside targets were presented differently than they had seen at other clubs. I had another shooter in the same conversation tell me that they were the same as they had seen them before...

Stuff like that makes me want to set up El Pres every month and forget about trying to set up the more complicated classifiers.

And when they brought up the classifier diagram on their phone, what was seen?

[CHA-LEE]

OK......... I am having a hard time understanding how CM 18-09 gets setup incorrectly when the WSB on USPSA shows a very detailed drawing with EVERYTHING given specific measurements. The only thing I can come up with is that people are "Winging It" when they set it up because they are too lazy to actually measure it.

[IHAVEGAS]

52 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

And when they brought up the classifier diagram on their phone, what was seen?

 

Assuming they could access the internet from the range.

 

For the Indy 400 level 2 match a couple weeks past they ended up printing rule books for each stage because they could not. If I was a lesser person I would report that I got a real kick out of that. 

[Nathanb]

1 hour ago, CHA-LEE said:

OK......... I am having a hard time understanding how CM 18-09 gets setup incorrectly when the WSB on USPSA shows a very detailed drawing with EVERYTHING given specific measurements. The only thing I can come up with is that people are "Winging It" when they set it up because they are too lazy to actually measure it.

I’d bet it has to do with the targets that are on the 45 degree angle. Specifically the first two targets you see standing at the rearmost fault line. If a wall leans an inch or the target leans these are the ones I noticed had the lowest tolerance from deviation. I had to make sure that the walls and targets were all shunned to prevent any wiggle

[CHA-LEE]

4 hours ago, Nathanb said:

I’d bet it has to do with the targets that are on the 45 degree angle. Specifically the first two targets you see standing at the rearmost fault line. If a wall leans an inch or the target leans these are the ones I noticed had the lowest tolerance from deviation. I had to make sure that the walls and targets were all shunned to prevent any wiggle

Not knowing or understanding the angle of the targets is a lame excuse. The drawing clearly defines the front target surface facing direction for all of the angled targets. The lines in the drawing clearly show that the front target surface should be pointing directly at the middle of the fault line in both the front and rear of the stage. When setting it up that is easily verified by using a tape measure from the center of the fault line to the bottom of the target stand. Are the target stand front legs parallel with the measuring tape?  Yep, good to go. Nope, move the angle of the target stand so the legs are parallel with the measuring tape.

 

People make this stuff way more difficult than it really is. It boils down to this. If you can't understand or interpret a detailed stage drawing with specific measurements, then don't setup the classifier stage. If you are too lazy to make the required measurements, then don't setup the classifier stage.

[shred]

That one is easy enough to setup inches off here and there just by measuring to the target stands instead of exactly to the target sticks (why they drew target stands when the vast majority of stands don't actually have the sticks perfectly at the edge of the stand is odd.  Did they intend for the measurements to be to the corners of the stick slots, or edges of the sticks or what?).  A little flop in the walls and unlevel ground and that changes the visibility of the targets too.  You'll also note that the dimensions of the required fault lines and the drawing won't both work either.

 

But, does it matter?  No.  Sack up and drive on.  There's no reason to half-ass the setup, but there's also no reason a tiny variation matters much.

 

If your club is infested by whiners that want classifiers thrown out for inches here and there, make those shooters petition USPSA and get a ruling if it should be sent in or not.  I bet they won't be happy with the answer, but the MD's job will be easier.

 

 

 

 

 

[IHAVEGAS]

16 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

 

 

People make this stuff way more difficult than it really is. It boils down to this. If you can't understand or interpret a detailed stage drawing with specific measurements, then don't setup the classifier stage. If you are too lazy to make the required measurements, then don't setup the classifier stage.

 

Seems that the rub comes in because folks do not agree about measurement tolerance and there is no written guidance, if folks can't relax a bit about fretting what does not matter then there are no "specific measurements" without specified tolerance.  

[CHA-LEE]

I think that it should be pretty obvious that using a +/- 1 inch tolerance on just about any classifier stage setup is "Good Enough". There will always be uncontrolled variances with range props that keep you from adhering to a sub 1 inch tolerance. Given that most bays these classifiers are setup on are not very flat negate the ability to setup classifiers to a perfect measurement anyway.

 

What I have a problem with is when classifiers are being setup incorrectly where the placement of the stuff is off by several inches or even feet because people are not even trying to measure things. They pace off distances or guess at how far things should be from one another. I have seen this happen a few times at club matches during setup where someone is trying to wing it because they don't have a measuring tape. I immediately call bulls#!t and go get the measuring tape for them, or take the measuring tape out of the stage box and shove it into their hand and tell them to quit being lazy and measure what they are doing. In my experience, classifiers not being setup accurately the vast majority of the time is due to laziness because they feel that measuring stuff takes too much effort. Or they glancing at the WSB to get a gist of how the stage should be setup then wing it from there. As I said before, if you are too lazy to do it right, then don't do it. There are plenty of non-classifier stages that you can "Wing It" during setup and it will turn out perfectly fine.

Edited June 19, 2019 by CHA-LEE

[pjb45]

Charlie is right. 

My old club had a bucket dedicated to the classifier stage. No excuses. 

We were anal about it. 

I believe I misread a classifier description once, a fellow shooter caught it. We tore it apart and redid it correctly. 

[IHAVEGAS]

1 hour ago, CHA-LEE said:

I think that it should be pretty obvious that using a +/- 1 inch tolerance on just about any classifier stage setup is "Good Enough".

 

I don't have heartburn with that, although target lean & wind and measuring some of the long classifiers over uneven ground might make the cheese pretty binding at 1". 

 

One thing you figure out on the internet though, one man's "pretty obvious" is another persons "not real world" and somebody else's "too sloppy". 

[davidb72]

No cell service at our club.

[CHA-LEE]

1 hour ago, davidb72 said:

No cell service at our club.

The USPSA App can be used to download and display the rules so they can be referenced without cell/internet connectivity.

[IHAVEGAS]

Much like having a book, but smaller.

 

[rowdyb]

practiscore app has the rulebook on it as well

[Brooke]

On 6/18/2019 at 1:15 PM, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Assuming they could access the internet from the range.

 

For the Indy 400 level 2 match a couple weeks past they ended up printing rule books for each stage because they could not. If I was a lesser person I would report that I got a real kick out of that. 

 

What the hell are you saying? Anybody can download the rulebook to their phone or iPad. You have no need for an internet connection at the range to have a rulebook. And just for the record, the classifier diagrams as well.

[IHAVEGAS]

3 hours ago, Brooke said:

 

What the hell are you saying? Anybody can download the rulebook to their phone or iPad. You have no need for an internet connection at the range to have a rulebook. And just for the record, the classifier diagrams as well.

 

You could assemble a staff of 40 people , if you have attended bigger matches you know that retirees will make up a large part of this group, and then tell them that they needed to buy or borrow a smart phone if they didn't't have one and download the rule book before the match and then resolve any issues on their itty bitty smart phone screen. 

 

Or you could use the scoring iPads for any rules reference and shut down the stage while any issues were being explored. The match was scheduled fairly tight and rain was forecasted all 3 days. 

 

Or you could have a printer make books. 

 

The last option was chosen. I thought it was a great decision. 

 

After thinking about it I think the lack of internet access at the range was likely a coincidence rather than the cause. Bad assumption on my part. 

 

 

Edited June 20, 2019 by IHAVEGAS

[AWLAZS]

On 6/18/2019 at 5:59 PM, CHA-LEE said:

Not knowing or understanding the angle of the targets is a lame excuse. The drawing clearly defines the front target surface facing direction for all of the angled targets. The lines in the drawing clearly show that the front target surface should be pointing directly at the middle of the fault line in both the front and rear of the stage. When setting it up that is easily verified by using a tape measure from the center of the fault line to the bottom of the target stand. Are the target stand front legs parallel with the measuring tape?  Yep, good to go. Nope, move the angle of the target stand so the legs are parallel with the measuring tape.

 

People make this stuff way more difficult than it really is. It boils down to this. If you can't understand or interpret a detailed stage drawing with specific measurements, then don't setup the classifier stage. If you are too lazy to make the required measurements, then don't setup the classifier stage.

 

[AWLAZS]

I was at Nationals and shot the stage we are now discussing. The left and right targets from the front were set up so one was available longer than the other. Not equal like in the diagram.   I was standing there talking with one of the RM's we were talking about the new classifiers in the match. I mentioned how I thought this one would be hard to reproduce because of all the angles and walls.  He told me close is good enough. They don't expect them to be perfect.

 

I have set up quite a few classifiers over the years. I use a tape or two and measure stuff out. Once everything is in place I have discovered somehow we managed to miss the mark and the stage is a bit crooked.  Not due to lack of effort. They way the measure from edge to edge is bad for us. Our target stands only have on stick in the center.

[Brooke]

On 6/20/2019 at 7:33 AM, IHAVEGAS said:

 

You could assemble a staff of 40 people , if you have attended bigger matches you know that retirees will make up a large part of this group, and then tell them that they needed to buy or borrow a smart phone if they didn't't have one and download the rule book before the match and then resolve any issues on their itty bitty smart phone screen. 

 

Or you could use the scoring iPads for any rules reference and shut down the stage while any issues were being explored. The match was scheduled fairly tight and rain was forecasted all 3 days. 

 

Or you could have a printer make books. 

 

The last option was chosen. I thought it was a great decision. 

 

After thinking about it I think the lack of internet access at the range was likely a coincidence rather than the cause. Bad assumption on my part. 

 

 

 

That is truly wrong. Nearly everybody has a smart phone and reading it isn’t an issue for anyone I know. The rules are searchable so finding something is faster than hard copy. It’s 2019 dude 

[hurley326]

10 minutes ago, Brooke said:

 

That is truly wrong. Nearly everybody has a smart phone and reading it isn’t an issue for anyone I know. The rules are searchable so finding something is faster than hard copy. It’s 2019 dude 

 

 

I couldn’t agree more. People who can’t adapt to things that truly make life easier are holding us all back.

[IHAVEGAS]

33 minutes ago, Brooke said:

 

That is truly wrong. Nearly everybody has a smart phone and reading it isn’t an issue for anyone I know. The rules are searchable so finding something is faster than hard copy. It’s 2019 dude 

 

22 minutes ago, hurley326 said:

 

 

I couldn’t agree more. People who can’t adapt to things that truly make life easier are holding us all back.

 

I had nothing to do with the decision, it was made by folks with a lot of experience successfully running major matches, recent experience attending major matches, and inside knowledge of recent match issues and complaints to USPSA. Given challenges put forth by Murphy's law and Mother Nature this particular match worked out very well.

 

That is not to say that things could not have been done differently, perhaps in your part of the world the lions share of the work is done by volunteers on the other side of 55. 

 

 

[hurley326]

 
I had nothing to do with the decision, it was made by folks with a lot of experience successfully running major matches, recent experience attending major matches, and inside knowledge of recent match issues and complaints to USPSA. Given challenges put forth by Murphy's law and Mother Nature this particular match worked out very well.
 
That is not to say that things could not have been done differently, perhaps in your part of the world the lions share of the work is done by volunteers on the other side of 55. 
 
 

I wasn’t referencing your specific situation just replying to the other guy’s comment. I have a lot of personal frustrations with those who refuse to adapt to technology that truly makes life easier. If it was just technology for the sake of being digital i could see resistance but most technology makes things a lot better than without it. I’ve run into this multiple times also serving in our clubs board. It’s not such much the lack of understanding of how to use technology to their advantage but it’s their rock firm stance and hatred against it. I could live with someone saying “I just can’t figure it out” but I refuse to accept the statement “it’s not better or it makes things much worse”. That’s just a denial of fact.

I’m 35 and a MD and my Co MD is around 42 and we have someone around 60 who helps out but is a sharp guy for his age and then 2 other of our steady helpers are 25 and 30.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[IHAVEGAS]

27 minutes ago, hurley326 said:

I refuse to accept the statement “it’s not better or it makes things much worse”. That’s just a denial of fact.

 

Except when they are right , sometimes with whiz bang we can't really factor in the human side of the equation until after we try it and see, and there is a tendency for folks on both sides of an issue to make the assumption that one size fits all. I have written a lot of machine control software and a bit of associated operator and maintenance documentation, there can be a lot to be said for prioritizing simplicity when dealing with diverse groups of people. 

 

Speaking practically though I agree with you that steps forward are more frequent than steps backward.

 

Looks like you are fortunate at your club having younger folks with both the opportunity to help and the inspiration, good!

[hurley326]

43 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Except when they are right , sometimes with whiz bang we can't really factor in the human side of the equation until after we try it and see, and there is a tendency for folks on both sides of an issue to make the assumption that one size fits all. I have written a lot of machine control software and a bit of associated operator and maintenance documentation, there can be a lot to be said for prioritizing simplicity when dealing with diverse groups of people. 

 

Speaking practically though I agree with you that steps forward are more frequent than steps backward.

 

Looks like you are fortunate at your club having younger folks with both the opportunity to help and the inspiration, good!

 

Help is sporadic though except for us 3 core members. We have been hanging by a thread lately with help stretched so thin. I wish we had more retirees with the time on their hands to chip in. I live an hour away from club and have to drive the night before for setup and then back again early next morning for final touches, add in 2 more days during the same week having to travel to the club for a board meeting and another day a member meeting, I can’t see us lasting for too much longer without more official staff who can formally commit.

[Nathanb]

I download the rule book in pdf format to each tablet Before a match.  

 

If headquarters would get off their ass and make it so the app doesn’t require login to the app to get to the rule book or give a generic login to the app for scoring tablets I’d use the app.  

 

I believe if you can register on PractiScore you can use the app to get to the ruleboo

 

i also realize this is only good until it’s twsted and it falls apart too