RJH Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 1 hour ago, IHAVEGAS said: Equipment manuals, standards documents, anything I need to use as a tool it is hard copy all the way. Much of that stuff has been on pc's for years and it has always been less of a pain in the arse for me to have the book available when it is something I will use repeatedly. My thoughts exactly, interesting how many people are seemingly completely against a hard copy. Maybe liquidity of rules has worked in their favor in the past, I can think of no other reason to be opposed to a hard copy being made available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 1 minute ago, Joe4d said: And really THAT is a huge problem from what I am gathering here. The rule book should be printed,,, sure to save money only send out by request or charge a small fee. But there should be NO changes until the next rule book comes out. No sooner than about 5 years. Crazy to have to look in multiple places for rules or for stuff to constantly change. PS,,, When I was active in the sport I could flip through a paper rule book, and find a rule way faster than I could ever open up an app flip flip swipe swipe, take off my glasses glare in the light try to move stuff, around a touch screen type in a search term, Basically because I was familiar with it and knew what chapter was what. This is true, another problem is that if you work for a living, fingers with calluses don't operate the touch screens worth a damn, but turning pages is pretty easy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 yeh just figured that out,, have NEVER been able to use a touch screen. Liked my keypad Blackberry but VZ dropped support, flip phoning it now. Took wife out in new bassboat, ( my other one was a 1993),, boat has touch screen GPS/fishfinder,,, was trying to operate it with mechanics gloves,,, Wife says it wont work. "Why not I am touching it?" "DING" Lights went on... had frostbight in fingertips, plus,, as mentioned worked for a living. reason I could never use these dang things. I swipe swipe,, but it only registers about half the time,,, and no way in Hades I could ever type anything... Although,, now that I am a desk jockey,,, seems to be getting better,,, Maybe I need to start moisturizing and getting cucumber rubs or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 Checked with my AD, he stated he thought an announcement of changes would be posted on the web page, but he is verifying that. I can use the pdf/app version but also prefer a paper version for ease of showing a competitor what rule is addressed as opposed to him/her leaning over my shoulder and wanting to grab my phone to read it. This will be a learning process in a lot of ways. I work with 2 hospital systems, both of whom state they are paperless...I use more paper now than I did before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dvc4you Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 This sounds exactly as when we starting using the tablets for scoring....Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 From the USPSA FB page: Kevin McPhee So an update on this. NO printed copies will be made USPSA, Members my take the pdf and have it printed for personal use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 7 hours ago, dvc4you said: This sounds exactly as when we starting using the tablets for scoring.... Reminds me of back in the early 70's when they said Harley Davidson was dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beta1759 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 I got one sent to me (along with my membership card and some other stuff) by USPSA when i signed up a year ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pskys2 Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 YES, I just like to have a book in my hands. Just so far behind the times??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb45 Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 So continuing the Question: are we getting good service from USPSA? They want to save money by "going Green" was what I read. Having the rules on a electronic device is a great benefit, however, making members print their own is not IMO a service to the members. If members want a printed version, USPSA should supply it, as someone mentioned, Range staff should have one sent to them. The guy who founded either GIECO or USAA once said : accountants know the cost of everything and the value of nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
galt11 Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 2 minutes ago, pjb45 said: So continuing the Question: are we getting good service from USPSA? They want to save money by "going Green" was what I read. Having the rules on a electronic device is a great benefit, however, making members print their own is not IMO a service to the members. If members want a printed version, USPSA should supply it, as someone mentioned, Range staff should have one sent to them. The guy who founded either GIECO or USAA once said : accountants know the cost of everything and the value of nothing. Like pjb45 said and someone earlier made this suggestion about certified range staff either being sent a rule book or allowing them to request a printed copy and I think that idea does have some merit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 1 hour ago, pjb45 said: So continuing the Question: are we getting good service from USPSA? They want to save money by "going Green" was what I read. Having the rules on a electronic device is a great benefit, however, making members print their own is not IMO a service to the members. If members want a printed version, USPSA should supply it, as someone mentioned, Range staff should have one sent to them. The guy who founded either GIECO or USAA once said : accountants know the cost of everything and the value of nothing. I wonder what would be the cost trade off between sending the upper echelon to only 50% of their normal match schedule for one year and getting books to all of the r.o.'s ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broadside72 Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 Do we know what the schedule of updates will be to the rule book? Will it be monthly, every 5 official rulings, once a year, e.t.c? Will official rulings be deemed immediately in effect or do we need to wait for the next version of the book to be pushed online for them to apply? If they do quarterly updates or whatever making them only apply when found in the latest book makes the most sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmagee67 Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 Simple answer...YES. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEH Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 9 minutes ago, mjmagee67 said: Simple answer...YES. YES Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatJones Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 The rulings get out of hand after a few years with any rulebook. We need a system that allows the rulebook to be clarified as we go. We need an evergreen rulebook.Updating a printed rulebook involves more than just changing the words. You add or subtract a few words and it can require reformatting the rest of the remaining pages. Setting this up to print hard copies for the few people who want a one is expensive, and I don't want to pay for it.Hell, the majority of USPSA shooters don't read the rulebook beyond the equipment rules for their division. And some don't even read that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 On 1/4/2019 at 10:55 PM, PatJones said: The rulings get out of hand after a few years with any rulebook. We need a system that allows the rulebook to be clarified as we go. We need an evergreen rulebook. Updating a printed rulebook involves more than just changing the words. You add or subtract a few words and it can require reformatting the rest of the remaining pages. Setting this up to print hard copies for the few people who want a one is expensive, and I don't want to pay for it. Hell, the majority of USPSA shooters don't read the rulebook beyond the equipment rules for their division. And some don't even read that. True, but rule changes that just pop up when they decide to change something is not really acceptable, and as was stated, there has not been a statement as to the frequency of changes or how the membership will be notified.. Evergreen can also mean ever-changing.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 Saw my first home printed rule book in the wild at a match Sunday. The guy that had it said something very like "when I'm working a match I'm not going to be screwing around trying to find things on my cell phone". Some things just warm your heart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 On 1/4/2019 at 6:22 PM, beta1759 said: I got one sent to me (along with my membership card and some other stuff) by USPSA when i signed up a year ago. And that rulebook is no longer valid.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beta1759 Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 1 hour ago, vluc said: And that rulebook is no longer valid.... good point! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HCH Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 On 1/4/2019 at 9:55 PM, PatJones said: Hell, the majority of USPSA shooters don't read the rulebook beyond the equipment rules for their division. And some don't even read that. Problem No. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GBertolet Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 I like the hard copy book. I am a RO, and if there is a dispute, it is faster to pull out the book, go to the right section, and look it up quickly. I don't have a smartphone. I don't feel like printing out all 121 pages of the online version either, plus that's quite a wad to stuff in your range bag, rather than a small booklet. I hope the USPSA supplies the books to the RO's , as before. I sent them an email, asking, but they have not responded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatJones Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 I like the hard copy book. I am a RO, and if there is a dispute, it is faster to pull out the book, go to the right section, and look it up quickly. I don't have a smartphone. I don't feel like printing out all 121 pages of the online version either, plus that's quite a wad to stuff in your range bag, rather than a small booklet. I hope the USPSA supplies the books to the RO's , as before. I sent them an email, asking, but they have not responded.It is much faster to search a PDF. Most scoring devices should have the rulebook installed on them in the near future. Your club does use electronic scoring doesn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 25 minutes ago, PatJones said: It is much faster to search a PDF. Just the opposite for me. Also if you are using generic devices you lose the opportunity to paper clip/highlight the things that come up or which are located where you would not intuitively look for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 43 minutes ago, PatJones said: Most scoring devices should have the rulebook installed on them in the near future. That would be ok for match officials who need to shut down a squad while a question is answered anyway, a shooter who wanted like to look at the rules if something came up probably wouldn't ask the squad to stop scoring and wait for him. Also I do not know why some shooters have a hard time viewing the screens on some devices, polarization of their eyeglasses? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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