Should USPSA provide a printed rulebook to its members?

[The Antichrome]

Yes.

[vluc]

18 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Hi xxx,

 

I have received your email and forwarded it to the appropriate managers. We are currently working on further developing things to ease the printing process for end users.

 

We appreciate your input.

 

Thank you. 

 

 

Who responded and who are the appropriate managers?

[Thomas H]

I guess I'm not understanding---since it is a PDF file, and people want a printed copy, and people have already said that is costs about $3 to have a copy place print out the rulebook, and it'll cost USPSA more than that to print out copies, bind them, and send them to everyone---why aren't people who want a printed copy, simply printing off a copy?

[IHAVEGAS]

43 minutes ago, vluc said:

 

 

Who responded and who are the appropriate managers?

 

Response was from the USPSA office manager (lady that the emails go to when anybody contacts them through their site). 

 

I have no idea who the "appropriate managers" are. 

[IHAVEGAS]

10 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

why aren't people who want a printed copy, simply printing off a copy?

 

Most of the folks who want one eventually will I think, we will just gripe about it. 

The way I look at it is, my dues haven't gone down, USPSA is fat enough with cash to fly people at the top to matches all over the USA (and internationally I think), so why am I losing my rulebook? 

Edited March 6, 2019 by IHAVEGAS

[bret]

26 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

I guess I'm not understanding---since it is a PDF file, and people want a printed copy, and people have already said that is costs about $3 to have a copy place print out the rulebook, and it'll cost USPSA more than that to print out copies, bind them, and send them to everyone---why aren't people who want a printed copy, simply printing off a copy?

The copy I have that was printed and bound was about $25 @ staples. 

 

My dues haven't gone down,  in the past when i renewed i was sent a rule book and overlays. 

 

Mike is being chintzy on what members are provided but went to the Philippines on our dime 3 times last year.

[galt11]

20 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Hi xxx,

 

I have received your email and forwarded it to the appropriate managers. We are currently working on further developing things to ease the printing process for end users.

 

We appreciate your input.

 

Thank you. 

 

 

IMHO, that is a bit of a non-answer answer.  You asked about how to petition something and the response is how they are looking into making it easier to print our own copies?  Not how to actually petition the board as you asked.

[Sarge]

5 minutes ago, galt11 said:

 

 

IMHO, that is a bit of a non-answer answer.  You asked about how to petition something and the response is how they are looking into making it easier to print our own copies?  Not how to actually petition the board as you asked.

Almost sounds like a smart ass response from HQ to me.

Edited March 6, 2019 by Sarge

[louu]

42 minutes ago, galt11 said:

 

 

IMHO, that is a bit of a non-answer answer.  You asked about how to petition something and the response is how they are looking into making it easier to print our own copies?  Not how to actually petition the board as you asked.

It seems like most people that respon to emails never read the actual email they are replying to. 

[louu]

Well I just got finished taking my RO recert exam. As usual I grab my trusty old 2014 rule book out of my range bag to to take the test with... Well I failed, and it turns out I failed because I used the book.

 

1 question was my fault I hit the wrong button by accident and didn't pay attention, super easy question that we all know the answer to, I probably rushed. 

 

1 question was a total BS question and even the correct answer was not in the rule. At least in the 2014 book. 

 

Heres where I'm really pissed, turns out these,,, (OK calm down), um people, decided to change the names of the targets. Why the f*#k would that be OK? 

 

I'm sure someone on here is gona say we'll you shouldn't be using and outdated book or something along those lines but I really don't care. I don't have time to keep up with all their constant, ridiculous changes and I'm officially done with uspsa. 

 

Should I bother telling them? 

[Sarge]

5 minutes ago, louu said:

Well I just got finished taking my RO recert exam. As usual I grab my trusty old 2014 rule book out of my range bag to to take the test with... Well I failed, and it turns out I failed because I used the book.

 

1 question was my fault I hit the wrong button by accident and didn't pay attention, super easy question that we all know the answer to, I probably rushed. 

 

1 question was a total BS question and even the correct answer was not in the rule. At least in the 2014 book. 

 

Heres where I'm really pissed, turns out these,,, (OK calm down), um people, decided to change the names of the targets. Why the f*#k would that be OK? 

 

I'm sure someone on here is gona say we'll you shouldn't be using and outdated book or something along those lines but I really don't care. I don't have time to keep up with all their constant, ridiculous changes and I'm officially done with uspsa. 

 

Should I bother telling them? 

lolol You took a test with an outdated rule book? As for the target name change, it is long overdue. Metric target? What the hell is that?!?

[bret]

4 minutes ago, louu said:

Well I just got finished taking my RO recert exam. As usual I grab my trusty old 2014 rule book out of my range bag to to take the test with... Well I failed, and it turns out I failed because I used the book.

 

1 question was my fault I hit the wrong button by accident and didn't pay attention, super easy question that we all know the answer to, I probably rushed. 

 

1 question was a total BS question and even the correct answer was not in the rule. At least in the 2014 book. 

 

Heres where I'm really pissed, turns out these,,, (OK calm down), um people, decided to change the names of the targets. Why the f*#k would that be OK? 

 

I'm sure someone on here is gona say we'll you shouldn't be using and outdated book or something along those lines but I really don't care. I don't have time to keep up with all their constant, ridiculous changes and I'm officially done with uspsa. 

 

Should I bother telling them? 

Right before the Florida State Match, local Club had a Level 1 and Level 2 Class, certified a bunch of R.O.'s and CRO's, using the old rules.

DNROI has done nothing as far as getting the word out to the existing Range Officers about the rule changes, most are not proactive enough to read the changes or the new rules, yet they are the ones running matches, USPSA has failed miserably in training their R.O.'s.

[HCH]

1 hour ago, Thomas H said:

I guess I'm not understanding---since it is a PDF file, and people want a printed copy, and people have already said that is costs about $3 to have a copy place print out the rulebook, and it'll cost USPSA more than that to print out copies, bind them, and send them to everyone---why aren't people who want a printed copy, simply printing off a copy?

 

1. What is my membership money going to, and why am I not provided a copy of the rules of whatever organization I have just paid money to to be a member of?

 

2. The rules should not be an “evergreen” topic that I have to go through weekly to make sure is being enforced correctly. If changes are made, it SHOULD be a pain in the nether regions for USPSA to notify members and provide a new copy of rules.  At least then we could see some bit of consistency for a few years. 

[louu]

16 minutes ago, bret said:

Right before the Florida State Match, local Club had a Level 1 and Level 2 Class, certified a bunch of R.O.'s and CRO's, using the old rules.

DNROI has done nothing as far as getting the word out to the existing Range Officers about the rule changes, most are not proactive enough to read the changes or the new rules, yet they are the ones running matches, USPSA has failed miserably in training their R.O.'s.

That's another thing I was wondering about, what do they do now at the class. 

1. Make everyone use their tiny phone during the class? 

2. Make you print out a giant stack of computer paper at home and bring it in? 

3. Still give out the old outdated books? 

 

1. What if they don't have a phablet, I know a lot of guys that don't. What if the range doesn't have wifi or cell reception. 

2. I'm already volunteering my time which is money, $50 of my own money, now I got to go out and buy two packs of ink and a ton of paper?

3. Yeah that worked out really well for me 

 

I'm bummed that I'm giving up on something I enjoy and invested a lot of time and money into because it's being run into the ground. 

[IHAVEGAS]

1 hour ago, galt11 said:

 

 

IMHO, that is a bit of a non-answer answer.  You asked about how to petition something and the response is how they are looking into making it easier to print our own copies?  Not how to actually petition the board as you asked.

 

I think it was the best answer the lady had immediately.

 

If there is no response from the "appropriate managers" after some reasonable amount of time then I would see that as a non answer. 

[davidb72]

I could maybe get behind not sending a rulebook to EVERY member in the organization, but club contacts, range officers, chief ranger officers, and range masters should be send a copy without question.

On one hand the organization tells us that the one thing we get of value for our membership is a clear and consistent set of rules to operate under but then they refuse to send us a copy of them.

SMH

[BritinUSA]

I think perhaps they should add an option to our online profiles (on the USPSA website) to opt in for a printed copy of the rule book, set it to Off as a default as many members may not want or need a printed copy. 

 

If it’s set to On then they get a printed copy when the rules change. This reduces cost as they only need to send it to those that have explicitly requested it.

 

USPSA recently published the BOD minutes from February and it’s shows a lot of growth, so they should have the revenue necessary to provide a printed version to those that want it; If not then vote accordingly.

[motosapiens]

At age 57, I was starting to feel old until I read this thread. Now it's clear to me that I am a tech-savvy youngster. Thanks!

[waktasz]

1 hour ago, louu said:

Well I just got finished taking my RO recert exam. As usual I grab my trusty old 2014 rule book out of my range bag to to take the test with... Well I failed, and it turns out I failed because I used the book.

 

1 question was my fault I hit the wrong button by accident and didn't pay attention, super easy question that we all know the answer to, I probably rushed. 

 

1 question was a total BS question and even the correct answer was not in the rule. At least in the 2014 book. 

 

Heres where I'm really pissed, turns out these,,, (OK calm down), um people, decided to change the names of the targets. Why the f*#k would that be OK? 

 

I'm sure someone on here is gona say we'll you shouldn't be using and outdated book or something along those lines but I really don't care. I don't have time to keep up with all their constant, ridiculous changes and I'm officially done with uspsa. 

 

Should I bother telling them? 

 

lol, bye felicia

[Corrado_kid]

Do the rules change that drastically that one wouldn’t be able to keep with a paper copy anymore? 

 

I wouldn’t even mind if there was an option to purchase a rule book from hq for cost. I would rather have a paper copy then be using my phone or a tablet. 

[Gary Stevens]

The President is the head of the United States Region. It is mandatory that he (she), or a designee, attend all IPSC conferences to vote and represent USPSA's interest. Nothing new here.

 

Having the President attend Area Matches, and any other match, IMO, is a good thing. Allowing the membership to have face to face communication with the leader of an organization has to be a positive. As an Area Director I tried to attend as many matches as I could. While there I made contact, and listened to the concerns and ideas of as many members as I could.

 

Your questions and concerns would be better served by directing them to your respective Area Directors. Posting on this or any other forum isn't likely to produce positive results.

Edited March 6, 2019 by Gary Stevens

[vluc]

1 hour ago, Corrado_kid said:

Do the rules change that drastically that one wouldn’t be able to keep with a paper copy anymore? 

 

I wouldn’t even mind if there was an option to purchase a rule book from hq for cost. I would rather have a paper copy then be using my phone or a tablet. 

 

Well, let's just say that there were a number of interpretations that never quite made it to the official book but not everyone may have been aware of them.

[MikeFoley]

On 1/10/2019 at 10:28 AM, bret said:

Since USPSA had money to send Mike Foley to the Philippines,  they should have enough to send out printed copies like they used to do and do refresher courses. 

 

Never seen a refresher course or additional training for Range Officers or Chief Range Officers, but it's a good idea.

 

Printed copies are good to have so you can tab them and show a competitor the rule in question. 

 

You are just making things up aren't you?  Mike Foley has never been to the Philippines, ever, in his whole life.  I'm only posting here once, so tell as many untrue stories as you like but again, the costs of rulebooks were never part of the discussion.  This is about rules being correct in real time.  Small things have changed and been clarified since the first week of IPSC in 1976 and USPSA in 1983.  The org is working on solutions to make self-printing easier for every person on every printer, if you want to print a copy, and we obviously intend to keep the website and mobile app up to date.  Training is going to change, if you've been paying attention, and an accurate rule book is part of that. 

 

Again:

 

Not printing rule books has nothing to do with cost savings, in fact it costs us more to ship tablets two directions to classes and back than rulebooks cost to print and ship once.

 

I have never been to the Philippines, and the only time any USPSA employee has been since I've been here, there was a positive net revenue to the org for the classes taught by the employee.

[MikeFoley]

4 hours ago, bret said:

The copy I have that was printed and bound was about $25 @ staples. 

 

My dues haven't gone down,  in the past when i renewed i was sent a rule book and overlays. 

 

Mike is being chintzy on what members are provided but went to the Philippines on our dime 3 times last year.

 

Never been to the PI, not once, just not true, where to do you get this stuff?  Don't answer, I won't be here to see it.

[ChuckS]

This thread started with the simple question on printed rule books. It has gone well beyond that and is off into the real or imagined political weeds of USPSA. Closed...